Its that time again. Time for a new open thread. Lafayette has emailed me and given me the high sign.
144 Thoughts to “Open Thread………………………………………….Tuesday, March 1”
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- You, Me and the Lamp Post
I am not sure what our objectives are there now. We really need to leave and chalk it up to …not even sure. If we had a clear objective I might feel differently. The nation we need to build now is our own.
Moon,
While I can see logic in the argument that perhaps we should declare “Mission Accomplished” and bring the boys home, and argument can also be made that in light of recent developments in the ME & SWA, having troops in established foward-operating bases isn’t neccesarily a bad thing right now. If Iran or Syria decide this would be a great opportunity to expeand their spheres of influence, having troops in the region is a healthy deterrant. The other alternative would be having to establish expeditionary bases, and move troops in from Germany and Japan.
Pretty incredible that we’ve been at war for going on 10 years now yet the average American hasn’t sacrificed anything whatsoever, except for the few families suppling the manpower. There should be an automatic 5% tax on everyone that triggers when we send troops into combat. I’m willing to bet that would make our politicians think long and hard before committing troops.
@Steve, I don’t disagree but I think we need to declare that as an objective or something that means the same thing…like keeping a presence in the region. I even support going there in the first place. I am just not up for nation building at this point. And how long do we linger in Iraq?
@Cato, that is sure something to consider. re 5% tax. I just don’t think there is enough American sacrifice when we go to war. Its too easy to forget and only a few bare the burden, especially since there is no draft.
@Cato – I agree with you, but that has not been the thinking since 2001 – The US is the only nation that I know of that instituted a war and tax cuts at the same time. Cheney said that “Reagan proved that deficits do not matter” – but now the deficit is #1 on everyone’s radar.
@George…Very powerfull words and a very powerfull sentiment. My brother is a career soldier who has been through two tours in Iraq and thankfully he’s lived through both tours, but at what cost? The costs are as emotional as they are physical. For all family members involved. For the children and spouses who worry each day that their spouse, father, son or brother may die. For the soldiers and marines that are exposed to the reality of war that we can only have snippets of on the news… War is hell. After my brother returned from his second tour in Iraq during the height of the IED killings, in which he lost many friends he knew. He went into himself, didn’t want to communicate to anyone, didn’t want to be around his family. As soon as he could (weeks!)rerning from Iraq he applied for and was granted a deployment to Korea for a year. And it was during this deployment, sans wife and children that he was able to wrap his head around what he went through and work his way through it. And it was only through cajoling and humor I could get him to talk to me. It took six months, but at the end I managed to get him talking. And he only told me a fraction of what went on. I encouraged him to seek help, a group, etc…but again and again the response was if he sought help he would incinerate all chances for advancement and derail his career. Oh and I listened to what little bit he told me and I would cry silently. What a terrible place war is.
Walker is now threatening the 14 Wisconsin senators with arrest. He wants them arrested and brought back to the senate. Holy cow.
George — It is not only on the battlefield where our people are being forgotten. The Wolverine family has one who came back from a second long tour in Iraq not long ago and was finally released from the “stop loss” program. Purple heart, lingering pain from his wounds, a battlefield promotion to sergeant because he saved his entire unit from an ambush. He is a hometown kind of guy, but he came home to the same place I described in another thread when discussing contemporary economic woes in the Rust Belt. The guy could not find a job which paid more than minimum wage and finally had to take a position in an official agency which tries to help returning vets. He had to commute across the entire state every week just to get to his work.
The local paper wrote up his story and added a long litany of other cases where returning vets could find no work of substance. One of the problems, it seems, is that many employers have been very leery of post-traumatic stress and other psychological problems like those described by DB in the case of his brother.
Damn it all, George, we send these kids into the jaws of Hell, and, when they come home alive, too many of us turn them away as if they might be some kind of potential poison in the workplace.
@Wolverine, sort of reminds me of another time, another place. Vietnam vets. The is a bad time to end a war…when there is a job shortage. Perhaps that is why there is an artificial delay bringing our troops home. I thought of this a while back….
I hope he soon finds work.
@Steve Thomas
“…argument can also be made that in light of recent developments in the ME & SWA, having troops in established foward-operating bases isn’t neccesarily a bad thing right now. If Iran or Syria decide this would be a great opportunity to expeand their spheres of influence, having troops in the region is a healthy deterrant.”
One of the biggest part of oru problems in the ME and SWA is the fact that we are there–period. Our being there gives the radicals just what they need–infidels are fouling our holy land. We have yet to understand that I believe. And the longer we stay, the more we look like occupiers not liberators. These are two of the reasons many of these nations have been reluctant to have us establish permanent bases on their “holy” land–par ticularly Saudi Arabia since it is the home of Mecca and Medina. As you also suggest, keeping troops in Germany and Japan may be a better alternative except both are getting tired of our being there–particularly Japan. Interestingly enough they foot a big piece of the bill for our being there–that is a good thing.
@Cato the Elder
I’m not absolutely positive, but I think there was a temporary 10% tax during Vietnam. This is a great idea and interestingly enough Republicans used to support the idea of such a tax but low and behold they now can only talk about tax cuts despite the fact that those cuts are punching holes in our ship of state.
@DB
@Wolverine
You are both correct–the cost of war goes well beyond the cost of the toys–the physical and mental costss are inclacuable and last for decades as we have seen with our Vietnam veterans and, to a lesser degree, with Korean veterans. I’m not sure why this is–are we made of lesser “stuff” than our parents and grandparents who served in WWII were made of? Do we have less of a “foundation” or is it the seeming hopelesslness of the current wars? Up through the Korean War, we pretty much were able to identify our enemies–they were organized, uniformed combatants. To some degree we could do that in Vietnam but there and now, the guy we see on the street this afternoon is the same guy who will be trying to kill us later that day or the next. He/she wears no uniform and is unidentifiable from the average citizen. He/she strikes when and where they please, using all types of devices to destroy us. I wonder if the British troops felt the same way in our Revolutionary War. They were used to fighting a standup, march across the battlefield with massed troops war and they were being faced by folks who ambushed them, hid behind rocks and trees and struck when and where they pleased. PTSD may have been around in 1776. Who knows?
Yes, although our military leaders talk the talk about mental illness/PTSD or whatever you want to call it, they don’t walk the walk and never have. General George Patton’s little episode in WWII was the tip of an iceberg that has never melted. Seeing the “shrink” is still a career killer.
Despite all the hubbub about military suicides today, our leaders are still unable to figure out why, despite their best efforts, the suicide rate seems to be increasing. And some of those killing themselves have never been exposed to battle. I left Vietnam 44 years ago and there are still things that bother me. I did an oral history the the Navy Medical Department and the historian asked me what one thing would I always remember about Vietnam. My answer was very simple–the smell of blood.
Our people come back from Iraq and Afghanistan and just like in Vietnam, they simply are cut loose to drift back into society. All the support mechanism they had when in the service is jerked out from under them–no crusty first sergeant or chief petty officer to talk to. No understanding platoon leader or division officer. And if you haven’t ever belonged to the “club”, that won’t mean much to you but it is very important. I still correspond with a few people who served with me in Vietnam and I have friends who experience the same thing. There is a bond that few can understand.
For DB and Wolverine, I hope and pray that your loved ones get through all of this. Just be there for them and let them know you love them. Be prepared to mostly listen and talk little.
@Moon-howler
Your point is quite right Moon. What do we do with all these young men and women when the come home?
UNEMPLOYMENT FALLS TO 8.9%
Could this be the start of something good?
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/04/109839/unemployment-falls-to-89-percent.html
UFB!!! The City of Manassas to give $409K to the Sesquicentennial. Only one Councilman had the cajones to vote no to this large amount of money.
http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2011/mar/04/manassas-spend-409k-civil-war-events-ar-883353/
Moon,
Beware, I feel a guest post coming on regarding the Sesquicentennial. 👿
Lafayette,
Why all of the outrage? You aren’t a City Resident, so it won’t impact your property taxes. We spend almost that much on the Fall Festival and 4th of July celebrations in Old Town.
I’m not sure what’s happened, but my last comment did not appear. Must be caught in the filters.
@Steve Thomas
Moon’s been busy on the phone and not manning the blog. She needs to unleash your comment. 🙂
Back to the Sesquicentennial, I hope PWC Taxpayer is still with us.
@clueless
Yeah, they are an interesting contributor on this topic!
Steve’s comment got sucked up and stuck in spam. I released it but still don’t see it.
@Lafayette
I’m just amazed at that amount of money. I fully understand the need for the commemoration. It’s a lot of money for the city to be putting out when the Parks and Rec. Dept is longer in existance. I hardly call that outrage. I may not be city resident but I am certainly entitled to an opinion on the topic. I sure saw/heard plenty of City of Manassas residents address our BoS to take action against illegal immigration. How is my expressing an opinion on a blog any different than those city residents express their opinion to MY BoS? And I never questioned anyone’s voice being heard. Your perception of outrage is not my reality. 🙂
You should read the spirited comments on my FB wall regarding this article.
Shoot, above
@Steve Thomas
FYI-I made a call to Moon. My spider senses were telling me your comment would be about the article.
Lafayette,
I didn’t say that you weren’t entitled to an opinion. I was trying to understand why a vote on a city matter, to spend city money, would so anger you as to want to do a guest post on it. The fact is, the amounts allocated are “by day” right in line with what the city would spend on a single day event, like the Fall Festival, like the 4th of July. With these events as yardsticks, the council voted prudently, IMHO. I think Councilwoman Bass said it best: this is an investment. The implied factoid is the council expects a healthy ROI, and based on other events, a healthy one.. There are going to be huge events out by the battlefield. The City needs to do things that will attract those visitors within city limits, in order for a benefit to be realized. Or, we could have a situation similar to that of the performing arts center; money spent outside the city, with little tangible benefit to the City, in the form of sales tax revenues. Millions spent on something in PWC. Thousands spent on something in Manassas (City Of). As a Manassas City resident and taxpayer, I’m betting these dollars are a much more sound investment.
@Steve Thomas
Cargosquid is not a resident of PWC or Manassas City and we all enjoy his opinion. Well, at least I do.
@Lafayette
It was spirited, alright. Yes, Lafayette did call me but I was heavily engaged on the phone over the lastest howler family emergency. All’s well that ends well.
I have no idea why some comments get sucked in by spam. I guess the program just takes a notion.
@Steve, I am curious what the City spends nearly a half million on for fall festival. Advertising or what?
It is difficult to compare the areas because the county really does lack the central location that the city has. Also, while the City has the restaurants, I sure don’t know where tourists would stay in the city. I am just trying to figure all this out. Maybe we should start doing some in-depth coverage of what all is happening for the this event.
@Lafayette
As another City Resident, I agree with Steve – dropping that $400K+ over those four days (and work leading up to it), is no different than the other festivals held in the City. Will there be full ROI on it? Who knows….but since the discussion is tossing around money spent by local government:
The Marketing Plan by the CVB shows they are dropping $570,000. One might present the point this plan is the beginnings for the five years, but to quote more than one BOCS member, “it started here”. The focus of expenditures to date are pushing those four days to capture maximum dollar…and given as of the February update to BOCS, domestic AND international inquires are up.
Oh, and add in the cost of the tree Wally Covington wants planted at the old Court House…I know if I buy a tree and plant it myself what it costs, but for PWC that adds in traffic control for the event, employee time to be at event, Public Works to send a crew to prepare the site and then finish the site, etc etc etc. Lot more than the money I would spend for sure.
The question to compare is if the City is dropping $400K+ for four days, and the slide presented to Council details every aspect of where that money is going, how much is PWC dropping IN TOTAL for those four days?
Kudos to the Stonewall Jackson girls for advancing yesterday in the states.
And a sincere thank you to the OHS Eagle boys for a great season, even as they
came up one point short last night in Richmond during the state playoffs.
Manassas is proud of them.
I just saw my real estate assessment for this year. Apparently, PWC found a silver mine under my house I didn’t know about!
I tend to side with Lafayette on the City expenditure. We don’t have much in the way of hotel space, what few restaurants we have charge a 4 % meals tax. I see the County reaping most of the return on this investment, not the City. Unless of course KK’s has a sidewalk sale during the celebration.
And I am trying to figure out if Raymond is talking about PWC CVB.
How much is the county paying? I didn’t think anything was coming out of the general funds and that the CVB was free to do what they wanted with their funds which are generated from lodging tax etc. Someone bring me up to speed. I obviously dropped the ball somewhere.
Emma wants her street repaired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YESSS!!!
@Steve Thomas
I’ve been following this topic for over a year. The reason for a guest post is not because of the city’s money article alone. I’d sent Moon another article on the topic yesterday. There have been a few threads on the topic on moonhowlings over the past year. I’ve had PLENTY to say on this topic regarding the county, the city, and Creston’s request for money with no plan of what the money exactly would be for. I and others wrote and called our BoS about the amount of money being requested with no plan. The citizens in the county spoke and low and behold they listened.
It is my sincere hope that this event is an opportunity for OUR community(PWC & CoM) to benefit from this event and show us in a good light for a change. We’ve gotten a lot of bad publicity lately due to crime and pervert teachers, and dope smoking teachers(PWC & CoM). I’m thinking about taking my sixth summer stacation right here and being a tourist in my hometown. The celebration in 61 was one of my parents first dates and I have the program and souvenir book from the day in pristine condition. This came in handy when we were working on the Stonewall Middle fiasco last year. I do plan on attending a few events.
I didn’t feel hysterical about putting up a new thread last night. We have two strong conversations going about the Sesquie and about single parents and Huck stepping in it. So I passed. Nothing too new other than the captured east coast rapist.
Both topics are rocking. Let’s here some sequie specifics…I really did drop the ball for a year.
Lafayette is referring to an article she sent me in Time Magazine. It was very interesting and touched on another 800 pound gorilla in the room…which is who is a hero and who is a racist and why do we honor them….
Also, has anyone seen the Buffalo Soldier event on the county channel?
@Raymond Beverage
Don’t get me started on the BoS and their trees. (Queen Caddigan Crepe Myrtles are dancing in my head) 🙂
I honestly have not had time to read up on the county’s money lately on the topic. Looks like I have a weekend project. I would expect the county to drop more money than the city on this event though. The reenactment which will be the most attended event will be in the county, as the battlefield and Sudley Manor House. Therefore, I think we will see the bulk of the tourist. I could be wrong. That’s thing we really don’t know yet, this is a one time event. Now, if all goes grand this year, I would not have a problem with the amount of money spent next year. We will then have real numbers to look at. Not numbers out of thin air.
Disclaimer: I’ve always used BoS in my posts. This come from my line of work and how it’s abbreviated. BoS in MY book is Board of Supervisors and not the same meaning it is on another blog. 🙂
http://www.fcnp.com/commentary/local/8662-tlc101.html
“Pretty much I am only electable in Manassas City and … New Jersey.”
@Big Dog
Yikes!!
Nice to see you bring up our Lady Raiders. This is great for Stonewall. The kids have been saying all year long that this is their year. I sure hope it is.
Congrats to the Eagles for a great season. I’m sorry to hear they lost last night.
Pretty sure the BOCS is planning to recoup most of the costs through permitting fees, a percent of ticket sales and direct reimbursement from the planners for some costs. I do wonder if there is an arrangement with the Cities for a share. It was discussed at one of meetings.
@Juturna
Can I get a permit and be a vendor for a few days? 🙂
Sure, sell your cakes. Sell them by the slice!!!
I think they are called sutlers. Do you have a long dress and a bonnet?
Great! Where do I sign up to be sutler? I don’t have a long dress or a bonnet. I could make one or rent one for the event.
The rich person when this is all over is the person who is a tailer or seamstress who can make period clothing.
I made the mistake of taking my dog with me to a reenactiment. Don’t!!!!! I had to carry a huge border collie home. She was terrified after the first cannon.
Is Centreville doing anything for this occassion? I never hear anything abouut Fairfax mentioned.
@Moon-howler
Good question about Fairfax. There is one thing for sure and that is they will get lots guests staying at their full service hotels. We only have so much room inventory in PWC and Manassas. Furthermore, who would willingly pay to stay at one of the few no-tell motels in the city. Honestly, what will our tourists think when they city police are at the Down Towner(native term) a/k/a The Old Town Inn all hours of the day and night for all sorts of illegal activity?
Here you go Laf…info on Sutle Village
http://www.manassasbullrun.com/c19/Sutler-Village-–-Vendors-Authentic-Merchandise-Provisions-–-Civil-War-150th-Battle-Reenactment.htm
@Lafayette
Following the Money…..
First off, when you look at what is in that $400K+, there was clear visiability on the slides presented last Monday night (replay of City Council is available for streaming on the City Website under our new Media Center). Included in that cost is landscaping projects to bring the City back up to par since this is one area that has been left to slide a bit over the last three tight budget years. Also included were funds related to personnel and specifics to the event. Very, Very, Very clear where the “little over 1cent of tax money equivalent” is being spent.
I’ve got the replay streaming, and when I get to the slide where it breaks out the costs, I’ll post the numbers. Can’t jump around the presentation (yet) like you can at the County, but hey, it’s a new thing with the City 🙂
@Moon, yes I was referring to the PWC & Manassas CVB. They have been receiving funding from both the BOCS and the City for this event in particular starting in FY10, and this year, and into FY12 although I have not looked that up yet in the draft PWC budget.
I offer, as Exhibit A, the CVB’s FY2011 Budget out of that sometimes unreadable format of the County Budget Book. This is where I pulled that over half-a-mil number from.
http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/12522.pdf
I agree all costs will not be recouped in four days. By the way, in the News & Observor today, piece by Historic Manassas looking for volunteers. Another cost never identified in a budget given that the current “hourly value” for a volunteer in Virgina is $27.64
@Juturna
Thanks. I look forward to see Lady Lafayette listed for the village. 🙂
@Raymond Beverage
I’ve not yet checkout the city’s new video capability. I’m glad that the city has upgraded. I do look forward to seeing your numbers. I’m glad the city has clear numbers for the event.
Thanks,
Chris
Here’s a list of the city events for those 4 days (plus the Peace Jubilee at the Courthouse), but there are plenty of events leading up to July.
http://www.manassascivilwar.org/planned-events/
Moon, you’re right about the seamstress. I told Kim Skokan she’d be doing a service if she filled her store window with corsets and bloomers :).
I’m wondering if Old Town landlords have thought about renting empty storefronts with sutlers – the way the mall fills up their empty stores at the holidays with seasonal goods.
@Steve…You are saying the city had a cash layout of 400K? I believe that maybe infrastructure support may have added up to that for 2 events…for 2 days. Since this is a 4 day event, that would mean 800K in infrastructure support PLUS the cash outlay the COM put up. There just are not enough OPEN HOURS of business time in the COM to recoup the funds through either restaurants, hotels and shops.
KK’s should invest in period undergarments to bring in a little extra!
I’m thinking of having a yard sale every day, selling yard space for parking and opening my house for a B&B. Might have some “unofficial” Tshirts made up, and let Lafayette sell her cakes in my yard (that way she won’t have to get a Sulter’s license/permit.)
OLD TOWN UNITE!!!!!!!