From NY Times News Alert:
Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to
strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public
workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber’s
missing Democrats.All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks
ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members
present to consider Gov. Scott Walker’s so-called “budget
repair bill” — a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million
budget shortfall.The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that
spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the
legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which
spends no money, and a special conference committee of state
lawmakers approved the bill a short time later.
So Walker did what he intended to do all along. Will this move end up in court? Was Walker’s intent to union bust?
The money issue still has not been settled.
Thank you Gov. Walker! Should have done this as soon as the Dems went AWOL.
who’s pulling a fast one here? the democrat state senators were elected to vote, and instead they fled the state to avoid their duty
Boy I am really confused. Haven’t we watched a bazillion clips of Badger Boy Walker espousing the fiscal need to cut union bargaining power, in fact, he even exoriated those for suggesting it was anything BUT a fiscal interest. Whoo Hoo, power to the people? Well, that sure doesn’t fit this scenario. At least the republicans can’t hide behind their real goal of wanting to bust unions in order to cripple the Demoractic Party. Be careful what you wish for my dear Republicans, 6 years of only GOP control did not bode well for this country. Well, except for the one year when Jeffords switch from Republican to Independent.
e,
when you represent an entire community, it is your responsiblity as a governor of ALL the people to make at least a modicum of effort to negotiate. Walker was unwilling to do that with the Democrats. But actually, what I would be more interested in discussing, is the facts of what has transpired. The republicans finallly admitted that this bullying move against the hard working middle class had nothing to do with fiscal concerns whatsoever. How about addressing that clear contradiction.
bust the unions, bust the democrats, power to the people! it’s probably too late since even republicans are too cowardly to take on entitlements, but kudos to walker for at least taking a stand. finally a republican politician with some cojones
no one screws the hardworking middle class more than unions. unions eventually succeed in creating such an onerous business environment for employers that all the jobs dry up and move elsewhere. walker and kasich in ohio understand that, and at least are trying to do something about it, as opposed to the linguini-spined democrat senators who skedaddled out of town instead of taking a stand on the issue
e, that doesn’t even make sense. What you are saying is political insanity because it is predicated on the assumption that all people believe the same thing. So much for democracy.
I expect that there will be many court challenges to what just happened today in Wisconsin.
The Democratic senators voted with their feet.
voted with their feet???? they were put into office to vote, and derelict in their duty, they should get the boot! maybe they can sign on with obama consigliere deadfish rahmbo in chicago
It is a parliamentary maneuver within the established rules. Happens often wherever there are legislatures. All parties use it from time to time. The Dems in the Wisconsin Senate did it. The use of the standing rules of the Senate to thwart legislation by absence of a quorum was a parliamentary maneuver. The Repubs did it right back and have apparently trumped the first Dem move. Like a chess match in some ways. Fault the policy at the base of the argument, fine. But you can hardly expect either side not to use the rules to their advantage when the rules allow them to do so.
Moreover, this Repub maneuver does not necessarily give the lie to the original fiscal intent. The first move by the Dems blocked the normal legislative path. Walker either had to surrender or to find another way around the Dem impasse to reach his goal. Doesn’t mean his goal changed, just the operational tactics.
@Wolverine
From what I can tell, some of the outrage has to do with announcing the contents of bills ahead of time. There is also the issue of their ‘open meeings law.’
Then there is the issue of collective bargaining. I don’t know that state’s laws.
After the Senate voted and the word got out, I heard some of the protesters claim that they were being deprived of their “rights.” If this becomes their next line of counterattack, then the courts may have to face a critical decision. If the courts decide that collective bargaining can be defined as a right, how will that rebound? What effect might that assertion subsequently have on right-to-work states like Virginia? And what effect might it have at the federal level, where I spent my entire adult life without collective bargaining. Surely such a recognition of rights would not end just with Wisconsinites under the constitution of Wisconsin. I would expect the movement to spread to places like the public sector in Virginia as well. I think that “Big Labor” would see to it. This may not be over by a long shot.
It all depends on how you define ‘right.’ I would say collective bargaining is a right that those in that state earned several decades ago. It has nothing to do with Virginia whose public employees do not have the right to collectively bargain.
I have a right to work…meaning I don’t have to join a union to work any job in the state. One might make the same argument about the use of the work ‘right.’
I don’t think that right to work and collective bargaining are mutually exclusive. I know, good luck with that one. I am not sure what ‘Big Labor’ is. I think Virginia is safe from any union take over.
I remember some years back, that the police in Fairfax County wishing to make their needs known to the Board of Supervisors all had the “blue flu” which involved a lot of sick leave use (and consequently the use of a lot of overtime pay for managers filling in). I also remember other public employees “working to the rule” which meant the employees did not do any work outside of their job descriptions or work hours (which also involved the use of unbudgeted overtime pay for managers filling in). Both of these tactics were used because there is no collective bargaining in Virginia and both worked. Wisconsin is bound to face the same measures and they do cost money.
Power to the people? Now THAT is funny! How about power to the corporations and lobbyists because the middle class has been getting the shaft since the advent of big money via the birth of the PAC. Furthermore, now that the supreme court ruled that corporations have the same rights as an individual, there is now way for Democrats to compete with big business. My hope, although very idealistic, is that eventually the screwing of the little guy to the extent that we no longer have buying power, will force a more even playing field.
I really wish people would discuss the obvious departure from the mantra “fiscall necessity” to bust unions now that they stripped the measure from the budget.
There is nothing more “derelict” in duty than to refuse to negotiate in good faith with the other party. What a disgusting example of “democracy”. The only ones 100% unwilling to compromise were the Republicans. Where are the cries of outrage that were expressed when the Democrats were accused of “ramming” legislation through without negotiations. Say what you will, but the health care bill has the most important component that mattered to many, the public option, taken out. THAT is what compromise looks like, shame on the Republicans in Wisconsin. All these public workers wanted was their rights to collectively bargain, all the pay cuts, benefit cuts, etc they were willing to give into, just don’t bust their unions. THAT is bullying in my mind, of the worst kind.
I find Scott Walker so contemptible I can barely stand to look at him.
Are the cops taking sides? They are just standing aside. Doors are being handcuffed shut from the inside.
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/116512/
More here at the chaos in Madison.
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/03/details-to-todays-wi-assembly-vote-if-buidling-is-secure-vote-will-be-taken/
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/03/angry-leftist-mob-storms-wi-capitol-pushing-shoving-screaming-peaceful-protest/
Where are the arrests?
What was that about the Tea Party? We’re being loud and rude? THIS is what being rude really looks like. Illegal too.
It is not just Walker, he has not signed the bill yet – it is also the 18 Senators that voted for the bill. How does it work in Virginia – if McDonnell wants, can he just say, that VA will no longer provide healthcare insurance to its workers? Can he just say, that pensions will not increase once you hit 50?
If you are a public employee in VA today, who stands behind you, if you are falsely accused of doing something? – in other states, it is the Union that stands behind you.
Part of the reason for the Unionization of Public Sector workers is to protect workers from the political whims of the day – such as what is exactly happening in Wisconsin today.
If you are a public employee in VA today, it depends on whether you belong to a professional association or not. If you do, it will stand behind you. If you don’t belong to a professional association or union, no one stands behind you.
The Tea Party was rude also. Just because you agree with a sentiment doesn’t make it more or less rude.
@Moon-howler
What’s happening in Madison is way past rude. Its a mob taking over governmental offices and threatening delegates and others.
The Tea Party didn’t do any of that. The Tea Party was just loud.
How about this? Walker should just pattern the collective bargaining rules after the federal workers…..oh, wait. They don’t have any…….I wonder why?
I think the system worked in WI. A vote was taken and the legislation passed. The voters will have the last say when they go back to the ballot boxes for a scheduled or recall election.
But, for now we can celebrate Victory in Wisconsin Day.
To echo what Wolverine said: Assuming Scott Walker’s procedural maneuvering last night was legal — and, as I’ll explain in a moment, there are some questions about that — then it was also legitimate. Certainly as legitimate as the Democrats fleeing the state to deny the Republicans quorum. They did something procedurally extraordinary to stop the bill from being passed, and he did something procedurally extraordinary to get the bill passed. – Ezra Klein
I think both sides took a beating in the court of public opinion. I didn’t really see any innocent parties but I do see states that are being forced to live within their means and are being forced to make the hard cuts.
Assuming a lawsuit does occur the Senate Dems will be in session and the Senate Repubs could just pass the regular non-stripped down version of the legislation anyways…… Also, let’s not forget the strange veto power in WI. Odd state but if it works for them..
Now, it’ll be interesting to see what other states do and pass because WI was getting the press but other states were doing the same or more without the press coverage.
Many WE’s won’t be celebrating in Wisconsin. I wouldn’t start celebrating until YOU win in court. I expect this is where this will end up.
It really wasn’t about the budget, it was about union busting. That is what happened yesterday. And salary was not on the table.
Cargo, why do you want to compare the tea party with unions? The only thing in common that I can see is collective representation.
The union folks weren’t in the state house illegally. As one sitting back and watching, I understand why they were in there. In a perfect world, they wouldnt have needed to be.
I feel confident you feel the same way about the group you claim. I just think we are talking about 2 different things. I don’t like that the collective bargaining was taken away.
cargo, I stand corrected. I didn’t realize the protesters are playing operation rescue. I will never approve of that. However, it doesnt push me over into the arms of Scott Walker or his republican buddies.
I have been quietly following this lately since I consulted in WI over a five-year period with several nonprofits. Been trading e-mails with folks who are in those entities. Had one that stopped me in my tracks, and has made me rethink a bit.
The Wisconsin Outstanding First Year Teacher gets recognized in the 2009-2010 school year, then handed a pink slip the next. Seems there was a movement to push her ahead of some other teachers in terms of quality performance, and instead, because collective bargaining rules say seniority, this young lady gets the can.
Now I ponder if Education is pushed to be quality and teacher’s performance related to it, is the union now an impediment to the “rising stars” in their chosen field of education?
@Raymond, that is an area the legislature could fix easily. All they have to do is allow a teachers with certain criteria to be retained.
The same thing would happen in PWC if there was a serious reduction in force. Senior teachers are the last to go. Why? Because otherwise every time the system wanted to save a few bucks they would get rid of the old and bring in everyone right out of college for half the money.
Now is that the kind of school system most people want or need?
If someone needs to be removed, then the administrators need to get off their lazy butts and do the work that is required to remove a teacher on continuing contract. It isn’t impossible to do. It just takes work, due process and documentation.
I definitely think that excellence in instruction should be valued. However, I do not think that we should throw experience and years of dedication to a school system out the window. Those are things to be valued, as well.
Ladies and Gents, may I present…..liberal hatred!
Actually, no, I just effen dislike Scott Walker. I hate how he sounds and that he is a bully. I don’t think it has a thing to do with ‘liberal.’ Anyone who knows me know I am not a strong union person. So…it must just be Scott Walker. But you are right, I do dislike him. I don’t hate him. He isn’t worth it.
My money is on the courts not intervening on this one…..even with the 24 hour issue.
@Slowpoke, we’ll see.
and what is the layoff policy in the state of VA – without a Union or collective bargaining rights – Seniority! Yes, if PWC is going to lay off say 2 first grade teachers in a school, seniority will be the factor. And, it is harder to layoff a tenured teacher if there is a non tenured teacher at the same school.
LIFO is an issue, yes, but for any of us that work in a private company, the same issues exists. Layoffs (or firing someone) is something that management does not like to do, and they have to do it properly – meaning, no discrimination, proper documentation, etc. Walker and crew are out to break up the Union, plain and simple. Should they contribute to the health plan – yes, should the contribute to their pension – yes – but what they are doing in WI is not going to solve their budget problems.
I wouldn’t be so quick to conclude that collective bargaining is separate from fiscal issues. You might be able to argue that position to some extent with regard to the Wisconsin crisis as it looks on the surface today. But certainly collective bargaining has an effect on budgets and deficits over time and has to be accounted for as a factor in future fiscal well-being. If it didn’t, I personally don’t think you would be seeing the clash and the digging in of heels we are seeing now. Lots of differing opinions out there; but, if you are inclined to view this simply as “union busting” for the sake of union busting, there are others who will counter that the demands of unions can lead to “budget busting.” I think the current clash in Madison has both an here-and-now element and also elements of future fiscal consideration.
I suspect strongly that, given the flaring of tempers over this issue, we will see some court cases brought. Judges are going to either have to get rid of those cases quickly by dismissing them or actually allow the issue to be debated and some judgement made. If it ever does get to the point where collective bargaining is defined judicially as a right, I would very much expect “Big Labor” (AFL-CIO, SEIU, AFSCME, NEA, and others) to try to use this as a tool to make a breakthrough in those places where they have long been at least partially shut out by law. In their shoes, I would certainly give it a go.
On the issue of compromise in Madison, I think we are simply seeing power politics as they are played out in our system. You run for office with an agenda. If elected and placed in a position of power, especially with a strong superiority in numbers, you implement your agenda. After all, why else did you bother to run? To claim that Governor Walker refused to compromise from a position of numerical strength is to forget that the Democrats in Washington did the same thing when passing the health care reform act. They had the numerical power, and they used it. I do not recall any serious efforts to compromise either with the weaker Republican congressional entity or with the protesters on the Mall. That is simply the way of politics. I was not happy with the health care reform act, but I certainly cannot fault the Dems for using the legislative power which had accrued to them — at least in part through previous mistakes made by the Republicans themselves. In both Madison and on the Mall, large numbers of people protested. In neither case were the protests heeded. So, the next steps under our system are (1) the courts; and (2) the next chance to go into the voting booth. As the Dems saw on a national scale last year, it is the risk you take when you have the power and use it. It now becomes a contest of post-action persuasion aimed at all the rest of us. In my opinion, this whole thing works a Hell of a lot better in the end than other systems I have seen and experienced. Governor Walker will now face the same chore as did the Dems in November 2010. He may win. He may lose. That, in my view, is just the way it is with we Americans.
An interesting aside to Raymond’s comments in #28. In the middle of the Wisconsin crisis, I caught a video of the current national head of the American Federation of Teachers Unions (AFTU). She rather firmly anounced that the AFTU was now ready to work very hard with government and education administrators to find a much more effective way of removing teachers who are fairly judged to be inadequate under agreed upon criteria. That to me is a very serious statement for someone in her position.
If the vote taken was procedurally on the up and up, they would have though of it 2 week ago.
As for union busting, somewhere along the way someone gave in to union demands, The unions didn’t just come in and start dictating how things would be. I just think the union busting is dead wrong. They had already conceded in 2 areas.
As for removing teachers who are judged fairly to be inadequate. It is the word ‘fairly’ that bothers me a great deal. Would ‘fairly’ mean that you are the most senior teacher? Would senior teachers be given the worst classes so their test scores were the lowest? Who would evaluate? The principal? bwaaaahahahahahaahaha
There are ways to remove teachers now. I expect PWC and WI pretty much use the same model. However, it takes a lot of work, documenting, observing, conferencing, offering help to improve, action plans. It just can’t be done willy nilly.
The school systems need to set up good contracts in the first place and plant people in place to determine these things, no just henchmen.
I say talk is cheap.
@Wolverine
That is an interesting aside there. Combining even what Pat tossed in about seniority, it is beginning to seem in some corners the whole “pay for performance” aspect long talked about (even in Virginia) the old ways of doing things may not be getting the best bang for the buck.
A friend of mine down at TAMU College Station recently wrapped up her PhD in Education. One aspect within the research was the purpose of Standardized Tests and Relation to Instructional Performance. I kidded her once using two words in place of “teacher” was a nice end run around the issue of quality and qualified teachers. Got an email from her today and she said WI and the various education unions are becoming the talk of the town.
What’s bothering the unions more than the loss of collective bargaining power is the loss of spending power. The power to have dues taken automatically from paychecks is gone and I think, so is “closed shop.” If not, it soon will be. Walker is cutting into the unions money supply and forcing them to have to collect dues themselves.
That isn”t what is bothering the actual members. Loss of bargaining power is what is bothering them. I do not blame them at all.
Dues can be taken out even in open shop areas. It just isn’t mandatory. @Cargo.
Are you sure that closed shop has been dealt the death blow? I have not seen that yet.
@Raymond, pay for performance evaluation is actually much more expensive to implement. Over the years I have seen lots of talk about it and every time it even gets close the PFP teams find out the system simply cannot afford it. Also, the metric still is faulty at best.
I do understand that there are teachers in the classroom that do not belong there. There are managers in Every Institution (State, Fed, Private) that should no longer be there – they are dead wood.
What I do not understand is why the Police and Fire Fighters are ‘exempt’ in Wisconsin, and why it is OK for Police and FireFighters to be LIFO, but not teachers. Why is all the anger directed towards the teachers?
@Pat, I guess because their group is the largest? re: teachers. I agree and I don’t know. Its seems unfair.
Hmmmmmmmmm…….. I recall some behind locked doors (Republicans need not attend) wheeling and dealing going on by the current administration back during the vote on the nation’s budget that put us into historic levels of dept. This is small potatoes in comparison. Don’t forget it’s the high cost of labor that has forced most labor related factory jobs overseas. The auto industry, especially GM, had to deal with UAW pressure every year in the 60’s and 70’s, and then along came the imports and took over the market.
@SA and those overseas seem to get a tax break also, don’t they? They also make something like #2 an hour. Don’t think most Americans would like that. Of course, out-sourcing fire and rescue, cops, and teachers might not be such a bad idea. [just kidding]
The outsourcing of car building to southern states is due to the high cost of union labor, not just labor. The auto workers in those states have actually rejected unionization as a bad deal.
And that sure explains why some of those auto building plants just kept going south….right over the Mexican border. No labor unions there either.
Hmmm…wonder what the wages are?
but it is not just the Union wages, it is also because the wages of an established base are higher than the wages of a new base. When the auto plant in Alabama was started 10 or 15 years ago, the wages were lower, no long timers, no baggage, new processes. As the plant is established, the costs do increase – more experienced workers, aging plant, etc. There are many successful union companies out there – Southwest Airlines competes with non-union Jet Blue. UPS vs non union Fedex. Walt Disney World vs non union ??.
Much of the anti-union rhetoric is just that – there are many companies that use Union labor, and are profitable, and there are many companies that use non-union labor that just go out of business. It does go both ways.
What is happening, is that we are forgetting that people make a company, and they make that company successful. Thomas Watson of IBM realized that – http://www.ibm.com/ibm100/us/en/icons/workforce/words/ – and wanted his workers to live well, and the company to make a profit. And, I believe his salary was a multiple of the lowest paid worker. Should we go back to piece work? I think many of us do not know or remember history, and think that all employers treat people fairly.
You can also look at companies like Swingline Staplers who moved manufacturing from NY, to Louisiana, to Mexico, to China – all in the search for lower manufacturing costs.
This is not a Republican/Democrat issue – it’s being portrayed that way to the masses — this is a business deal that will benefit a certain few. It’s not worth discussing here – too many think they too are in the same league as the Koch Bros because you ‘think’ alike and too many see it as political warfare… That’s very limited thinking. This is class warfare. So where you do think you are on the scale???!!!
I’d say this is not done yet.
This is great. The US auto unions just about put the US auto industry out of business but we bailed them out. The public unions in Wisconsin are going to put the state out of business so the gov shuts the unions down. OR, the Wisconsin tax payer can bail them out.
I love it.
hehe… what do you drive?
@Mando,
Japanese