I never understood the difference in bigamy and polygamy until I went to Utah for the first time about 15 years ago. I was reading the paper and saw that some man had been arrested for having 2 wives. Then on the front page there was so big arrest made to a polygamist but it was for beating his daughter. So naturally I had to give up all my pride and ask my hosts.
And yes, my hosts were all Mormons, but maybe not practicing ones. After they laughed and carried on over my ignorance, they explained it. Polygamist only have one state marriage as we saw in Big Love. Barb was the legal wife. The others, Margene and Nikki, were ecclesiastical wives. That is not illegal. It is taboo, however, in the official Mormon Church, otherwise known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Barb has been excommunicated because she was living in polygamy. Bill, Nikki and Margene had never been in the mainstream Mormon Church so they were not excommunicated.
So I got an email from a friends asking me what was the difference in living together and polygamy. I would say there is none legally. The legal problems of polygamy center around child abuse and statutory rape. Amongst consenting adults, what is the problem? There has also been a problem with many of the polygamist men not supporting their children and costing the state lots of welfare money. The Juniper Creek class polygamists ran in their own little world and lived by their own laws. However, if people are living like the Hendricksons or those seen on the reality show Sister Wives, why does it concern us?
Any opinions or comments?
Juturna said:
I had never thought of the rebirth of Bill and Barbs faith.
The part about the ancestors is what really got to me on so many levels. In the first place, Mormonism is really a truly American religion. What those poor people had to do to get to Utah and settle it is almost a miracle in itself.
That is really what the sealing is all about. The lose end is that Barb wasn’t sealed to the others because they went ahead without her. Maybe they had done it before. But seeing the ancestors is what started the water works for me. I think he was actually having a vision of things to come but he didn’t know why. (nor did we.)
Any man crazy enough to get married to more than one woman deserves what he gets…… 😉
Most of us have enough trou….um….on our hands living with just one wife.
The ending transcended Mormonism and polygamy, and was really more about enduring love and human connections. I saw “Brokeback Mountain”–both the movie and especially Annie Proulx’s short story– in the same way, that it was about so much more than two gay cowboys.
Eighteen years in parochial schools 🙂 The grammer school and high school I attended were very big on comparative religions and emphasized strong respect for other beliefs. We visited other churches and synagogues routinely to dispel any strange ideas that kids have. Strong faiths with pure intent are to be respected. Locally, Mary Baker Eddy was a well known person. The most fascinating thing I recall were the stories my mom told me about them visiting her grave in Cambridge looking for a phone – Eddy supposedly told people she’d call from beyond… I got in so much trouble repeating that story at school and had to write the Declaration of Independence twice. I have such respect for Christian Scientists!!! M-H another truly American religion.
Exactly, which is why religion isn’t just one particular faith. It’s not the trappings or the rituals it’s the beliefs. Beliefs require a leap of faith and acceptance so if you have strong beliefs, it makes it easier to accept others beliefs….it’s the strenght that is respected. Not sure I’m making sense.
Of course I enjoyed studing Augustine, Aquinas and More and the gang particularly Aquinas whose whose works included proofs of the existance of God. Some (percieved) facts are a nice back up.
I seldom care about other people’s living arrangements or relationships as long as they’re consensual and the individuals are of legal age.
I didn’t watch any of “Big Love” or “Sister Wives” so I don’t know whether the relationships were idealized or not. My late cousin was a public health nurse in Utah for many years and she said she knew of some abuse of young women/girls in some of the break-away sects that she encountered. She said that she could spot young women who belonged to these sects by their demeanor. I believe she meant their passivity.
I can understand how a show about polygamy could be interesting since there would be natural issues of jealousy, status within the group, child rearing, etc.
@Censored
They also wear prairie clothes.
It was very interesting. Jealousy is such a strong emotion. Look at dogs. They experience jealousy very badly. If dogs are that jealous, imagine people.
I don’t think polygamy can even be discussed if we are talking about the cult ones like led by Warren Jeffs and that involve mistreating kids. However, according to my sources, not all are like that. Not even close. Again its almost like a class thing.
“I don’t care what you believe in, just believe in it.” -Shepherd Book
I’m not against polygamy as long as it’s not a way to bilk the state for child support. Overall I just want the kids taken care of. If it means sister-wives or brother-husbands.. as long as it’s a family unit with some sort of father and a mother.
Considering how many unwed single mothers we have now a days… Maybe its a solution?? 🙂
@marin, very much of a solution for responsible polygamists, I suppose. However,, the child support/welfare thing is a problem with some of them.
Again, it is like everyone else. Class system….some people are responsible. Others live like trash and expect someone else to foot the bill.
There are communities out in Utah and AZ that have large pockets of polygamists.
One area we haven’t explored with polygamy is that it takes inheritance and flushes it down the toilet. Who gets what and how much?
Ouch.
But, I do agree that some are responsible and some aren’t. The ones that want to do it because they want to kid touch shouldn’t be allowed to exist on this dirt ball of a planet.
Totally agree, Marin. 46 year old men taking 15 year olds as ‘wives’ is just nasty. They deserve to be somone’s ‘wifie’ for live…someone named Bubba.
Inheritance should be handled like any other inheritance….spell it out in a will.
Some of the bad ones probably don’t have anything to leave. Also, I think in some of the cult places like Warren Jeffs had, everything is communally owned…in other words, the ‘church’ owns even the house and furniture.
Class seems to be dominating this conversation. Hendrickson types would have a will. Juniper Creek types would have everything owned by Alby and Roman.
@Moon-howler
Just had a thought….I wonder what all the real “Bubba’s” think about that sort of statement. I mean, if one was nicknamed Bubba, wouldn’t that statement be bothersome?
Things that make you go….hmmmmmmm….
@Cargo. Yes it would, however, they should take it up with their parents. What person really names their kid Bubba? 🙄
Last year I read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakeur, which provides some great insights into the formation of the Mormon religon, Joseph Smith, and today’s mainline LDS church, and the underground polygamist sects. http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Story-Violent/dp/0385509510
I look at polygamy as a lifestyle, in the same vein as I view same-sex and cohabitation or “common law” relationships. Nothing illegal about them, under our laws. This doesn’t mean I must accept or approve the lifestyle, but it doesn’t give me a license to go condemning them either. As a citizen, I have a right to oppose the efforts of those practicing this lifestyle to have their realtionships recognized as “Lawful Marriages”. As a Christian, I do not accept these lifestyle arrangements as they have no basis in scripture, or have specific warnings or prohibitions against them.
So, in a nutshell, if someone wants to practice polygamy, that is their business. If they want to advocate to have the relationship sanctioned b the State, by overturning Bigamy laws, I will oppose them.
@Steve, I tend to agree with you. I do oppose anything that hurts women or kids, but other than that, live and let live…just so I don’t have to do it. Since this is a religious calling, they should have no problem remaining sanctioned only by their church.
I would have no problem, however, if states only acknowledged civil unions and left the institute of marriage to churches. That way, no one’s sensibilities need to be offended. I did not vote yes for the marriage protection act. I didn’t like some of the hetero restrictions, as I recall.
@Steve – many faithful have ‘westernized’ the Bible. I don’t disagree with you in concept but I have seen references to multiple wives in the Bible and also note that the countries that allow multiple wives are from the geographic region as the Bible.
I am by no means a Bible scholar and not trying to start anything.
@Moon-howler
Uh…Bubba, Sr. and Bubbette?
aka Big Bubba, Momma Bubba, and Little Bubba…..
Are those Bubbas related to the Bears? @ Cargo?
Lousianna bears?
I knew a guy nicknamed “Bubba” when I was growing up. I think it’s a Southern term for “brother”. Maybe it made it’s way into prison slang because what Southern backwoods types (and their supposed penchant for farm animals) stick in everyone’s mind more than those characters from “Deliverance”. We knew what they liked! Eek!!
Same sex marriage has been debated but what about plural marriage? Just a question someone had proposed and I had to think about it. Still thinking about it. 2 people is one thing but where does that end?
@Red Dawn. I read your name as Red Damn.
I have heard a lot of that ….but what about polygamy stuff. I think it was a ploy to make those of us who didn’t much support the marriage act to go into shock. It didnt bother me at all really.
I see no reason to legalize polygamy. They have a system. Let them do their own thing as long as they leave girls alone and support their wives and children.
I feel sorry for those poor young girls who end up with old goats as husbands. I also feel sorry for those boys who were thrown out like Bill Hendrickson. I know that big Love is fiction but it also dealt with many real life issues. Those boys are very protected and don’t know how to live on their own.
I guess I should have caught up on the comments before posting mine 😉
Nah – good to see you Red Dawn – OV
It would become a burden on health care…. much like plans where there are frequently divorcing/remarrying members that are required to keep multiple spouses on health care. Now there’s something to legislate. Doesn’t impact me and it costs me more…..
I doubt that the vast majority of polygamists are nice, well-maintained, educated suburbanites like the Henricksons. I imagine the Juniper Creek folks are slightly more representative of reality. But I think that is why the show was so fascinating. Why on earth would any educated, middle class woman fall into such a lifestyle? Barb’s character was fascinating in that regard, and Jeanne Tripplehorn did an amazing job portraying her conflicts.
Emma, you are as bad as I am. I have read that there are some middle class, educated suburbanites in that lifestyle but I agree with you…..hardly representative of the cult side of this.
I do have a friend whose daughter married a guy whose parents are polygamists. He seemed ok. Got an education. However, I heard a few tales about his father and it was definitely Juniper Creek. I also had to go do some looking when I was in Hurricane, Utah. I only saw a few. I did see compounds though.
I think cult says it best. And I always wondered how people like Nikki and Bill ended up sounding educated etc when they came out of Juniper Creek. That was sort of a quantum leap.
Moon…it is Hot Dame…I mean Hot Damn! I mean RED hot Dawn LOL! :)Good to see you too, Jutruna & I see, Emma! 🙂 Here was the debated question….Same sex marriage is one thing, plural another, incest a different story and when religion OR agnostic belief is thrown in…where do we draw the line in things such as sharia law?
How on earth did you get sharia law in to the mix? That is one cute dog!!
Thanks!! Because, I don’t support allowing spousal abuse ( i.e. stoning ) because of religion either 🙂
Juturna,
About 3 years ago, I embarked on a Biblical Study of Christian marriage. My motivation I had what I considered a “good marriage”, bit wanted a “great marriage”, with all the blessings, fullness and joy that a marriage promises. I have read the scriptures, commentaries, attended workshops, conferences, and spoken numerous times with biblical scholars and pastoral staff at my church. I am no expert, and the study and application is a daily activity, but I do think I have a pretty good grasp of what the scriptures say about marriage, and the historical/societal context in which they were written. Here’s what I have learned:
1) There are examples of polygamy in the old testament. Abraham had a wife, who was barren, and his wife offerred her (egyptian) servant to him as a surrogate. The servant bore him a son (Ishmael), and was elevated in stature to “second wife”. When his first wife later bore him a son (Issac), jealousy between the two women forced Abraham to make a choice. He honored his wife, and sent Ishmael and his mother away. Scripture indicates that the acrimony from this familial strife is the source of todays acrimony between the Jews and Arabs. Accept or reject this conclusion, the lesson is this sort of “arrangement” is not healthy.
2) King Solomon, the wise and wealthy king of Israel, was Son of David. Solomon was the product of an adulterous affair between his father David, and his mother, Bathsheba. Solomon had many (1000) wives and concubines, which caused him no end of frustration and trouble. Scripture teaches that this ulitmately led to his being led astray, and incurring the wrath of God. History shows us how the scheming of the many wives, and ultimate struggle for succession to the throne of their sons, tore the kingdom apart and left it open for a series of conquests and foreign rule that lasted until modern times. Again, the lesson here was a warning against bigamy and polygamy.
By the time we get to the New Testament, references to “Husband & Wife” always appear together, and “Husbands & Wives” appear together. This from the original Greek, in which the New Testament was written. There are no “Husband and Wives” or “Husbands and Wife”, or “Husband & Husband” or “Wife & Wife” The many scriptures dealing with marriage clearly indicate the obedient Christian marriage is one of one man, married to one woman.
If you read these scriptures, you will see that Husbands are called to “love & cherish” their wives, and wives are called to “respect & obey”. What this clearly indicates is that abuse, domination, intimidation, adultery, and all of the other negatives that may inflict a marriage, have no scripural basis or justification. Quite the contrary. A man is supposed to serve his wife and children, as Christ serves his Church, with love, patience, and self-sacrifice. He’s to put them first, even above himself. Nothing about being a domineering master. A wife is to respect her husband, and support him in his role as spiritual (if I could underline this, I would) head of the family. Nothing about a wife being a servant or sex slave. Nothing about being silent, barefoot and pregnant. If you think about it, should both husband and wife approach their marriage with a clear understanding of these roles, doesn’t that sound like a pretty good foundation, upon which to build even a secular marriage?
Considering the founders of our country clearly indended our society to be governed by Judeo-Christian traditions, even in matters of secular law & society, and that there are MANY biblical warnings and outright prohibitions against polygamy, bigamy, adultery, etc., I have little trouble refuting those who point to scripture as a justification for their actions, as easily as I refute those men who point to the bible as a justification for abusing their wives. Since there is no room in our legal tradition for different sets of laws for different religons, Sharia is incompatible in total, especially the rules regarding women, marriage, etc. It may work in countries and cultures with a ubiquitous/homogenous islamic tradition, but not here, IMHO.
The disrespect and abuse that happens to women in some Muslim countries has no part in any tradition or Sharia Law anywhere in the world. Alas, I dream. Too bad we still have people in this country who feel that is an appropriate standard.
The arguements against we’re pretty good and I find myself coming to the conclusion that within our current legal framework — it wouldn’t work. So, I’m flip-flopping. 🙂
@marin flip flopping on polygamy? What is the question? I see no reason to mess with it. Let those cult folks handle it within their church.
As for same sex marriage–the courts will handle that. I would prefer the concept of civil union and let people marry within their own churches but thats me.
Moon,
I do believe that Sharia in principle is intended to protect women and children, but in practice, as we have seen time and time again, is used to subjugate women. A woman’s claim of rape is just that, unless backed up by a multitude of male witnesses. Honor killings, etc. One item of note, while polygamy and multiple wives is permissable under Sharia, the Koran does advise against it, mostly to protect the man from self-inflected grief in trying to please and support too many women.
Am I the only one that is ecstatic about this show ending? My wife LOVES this show, I watched it in the beginning but could never get into it. It sucks… well, maybe it doesn’t suck, it’s just not my cup of tea.
My wife got SOOOO pissed the last time it was on that I dared to change the channel before scenes for the next weeks show came on. Ill never make that mistake again, she nearly went crazy on me, I was scared for my life.
Mrs. You Lie is a wise woman.
Yes, Mrs. hello is a wise woman (You Lie! is my avatar). The show ending is the best news for my personnal health and safety. Very valuable lesson to any husband/boyfriend/domestic partner out there. Never, and I mean never, change the channel before ‘scenes’ come on. If you do, may God be with you, there is no telling the wrath you will encounter. Ill never make that mistake again.
I am aware of your name. I chose to call you You Lie because Hello is a greeting.
I am glad that she made you a believer in that valuable lesson.
Hello,
Could you imagine the multiplicity of that wrath, if you practiced polygamy? Change the channel and get it times 2, 3, or more? How about birthdays and anniversaries?
@ Steve Thomas:
“Considering the founders of our country clearly indended our society to be governed by Judeo-Christian traditions”
Where in Hell did you get that notion? Was it written in the Bible or did your pastor say it so?
If we are a “Christian nation” why then do we not have a state church? Why do we not have Jesus Christ mentioned in the Constitution? Why do we not have the 10 commandments be our original 10 Ammendments?
I’ll tell you why, because this nation was NOT founded upon the Bible or Judeo Christian principles. It was based upon the philisophical movement of the ENLIGHTENMENT which SHUNNED the “gawd allmightee” as being the focal point of goodness and morality.
Jesus christ in a handbasket – the knowledge of our nation’s foundations and historical background is in such a state of IGNORANCE, I really do fear for the future. Does anybody read, or did the vast population cheat on their tests in high school civics classes?
And FWIW – Glenn Beck is NOT a source for your premise. He gets his theological-megalomania from Joel Skoussen – an extremist mormon who was palling arouund with theJohn Birchers and who spoke freely, ealily and passionately about blacks and Jews….e even gave credence to that Russian Import “the protocols of the elders of zion” – the insane ravings of the anti-semetic former russian state police – the Okhrana (under Czar Nicholas II) and the same text Adolf Hitler found to be….like the bible.
US is a judeo-christain founded nation. Bullshit. Check your facts next time.