Updated: Additional info and continued discussion at http://www.pweducation.info/2011/05/reagan-middle-school-boundary-discussion/
From InsideNova
According to White’s presentation, by 2012 Bull Run Middle would be at 147 percent of the school’s 1,233-student capacity without Reagan Middle. Gainesvilleand Marsteller Middle Schools will both be more than 30 percent overpopulated under the same circumstances.
By following Plan 5, Reagan would open at 93 percent capacity and would drop Bull Run Middle’s population to 1,122 students, or 91 percent capacity. Gainesville and Marsteller would both remain over 100 percent capacity, at 106 percent and 123 percent, respectively.
However, four mothers who have children in the affected school zones, voiced objections to Plan 5, mostly due to concerns over the ratios of limited English proficiency (LED) and economically disadvantaged students (EDS).
“I know it’s important when they come up with these plans to balance these statistics,” said Jill Browning, who has two children attending Gravely Elementary that would eventually go to Bull Run Middle under the proposed plan.
This a public school, and all children have a right to attend. Going to school is more than just the 3 R’s it is also about becoming a more well rounded human being. I believe one the of the disadvantages of being in the western end of the county is the lack of diversity, not just ethnicity, but economically.
White’s presentation indeed projects the percentage of LEP students at Bull Run Middle will rise from 3 percent to 14 percent and the ratio of EDS — students who qualify for free and reduced-price lunches — will almost double, from 12 percent to 23 percent.
Reagan Middle would open at 4 percent LEP and 8 percent EDS.
Clearly, there is a proportional difference, but I believe that Bull Run has an advantage in their diversity, one that I hope Reagan Middle School will reach one day in the near future. These moms are not happy to have this diversity at their school. I wonder how they would feel if their kids attended some other middle school?
Boundary Plan 5
I don’t understand why you say schools on the western end of the county aren’t diversed. Then you site Stonewall Middle for diversity? This makes no sense. Maybe the “out of town areas” aren’t diversed, but I can assure there’s plenty of diversity in the Manassas area of the Gainesville District(western end).
As a former student and parent of a student of SMS, I would like to remind you not that long ago, students from Gainesville and Haymarket were coming to MANASSAS to attend school. They were not attending schools in their neck of the woods and were exposed to all walks of life. Also, NEVER has SMS had a student bring a gun to school. Sadly, this same can not be said for Marstellar Middle, which not that long ago was sitting in the City of Manassas.
People need to remember these are PUBLIC schools, and if you don’t want your kids exposed to only a certain economic, ethnic or social background, send them to private schools or homeschool them. Sounds like a bunch of whiny cats to me. MEOW!!!
Laf,
I agree with you. These are public schools!
I am pointing to the numbers cited by the school board for english learners and free and reduced school lunch as a base point that demonstrates an ethnic and economic point of diversity. It’s not meant as an insult, sorry if it sounded that way. I was using a short cut as a discriptor for a general location, I definately should have been more specific.
This is tricky to comment on but I don’t guess I’m surprised. That level of diversity may be new to some of those folks.
I can tell you that, as an elected guy, I’ve recieved several letters (actual hand-written letters) over the years (one of which I kept) imploring me to stop the “immigration problem” in Manassas before it “got to Gainesville”. Not sure how I was supposed to do that….
My neighborhood’s diversity runneth over. Can we share?
@Andy H
LMAO!! Yeah, why didn’t you stop it from creeping into WestGate/Sudley, they are just across the city line? 👿
I am dumbfounded at the over-crowding at the western schools. Why are we always playing catch up? At what point do the developers get to own some responsibility for new schools?
NCLB makes all of this something it shouldn’t be. Why hasn’t Congress refused to renew it? Why hasn’t President Obama pushed to get rid of it?
The bottom line is, the parents can squawk all they want. It will make little difference in outcome.
I can actually see their point of view…up to a point. I expect they believe that they have spent all this money living in a high end neighborhood and they should have schools that reflect those ‘values.’
On the other hand, if I were king for the year, I would take the 4 NCLB sub groups and distribute them evenly about the county, employing ‘bussing’ if necessary. One school shouldn’t have difficult student populations while others get to be the desired school.
Boundary changes are the most emotional of all the hearings, as a rule. People hate change and they hate the boat rocked.
Indeed. For an interesting read, check out “The Bee Eater”. It’s about Michel Rhee’s tenure at the DC schools. I think she achieved some interesting results but made a number of enemies she didn’t need to.
@Andy, she did some real good things for DC schools, including piss off a lot of people. In the end, the kids were better off for her efforts, I do believe.
Thanks for the recommendation.
14% can’t speak English, that is absolutely freaking ridiculous. No wonder people are angry.
Covering up the ugly truth by spouting something about “diversity” is nonsense.
This will turn that school into a lesser entity. It will over time lead towards a slide away from suburban standards.
I don’t/wouldn’t want my kid to go to a school where 1 out of 7 kids can’t speak English. Think about it. This is through the looking glass stuff. This is important, too.
This is a fairly dramatic future we’re building here. Anyone who sees this as a positive opportunity for diversity, hasn’t studied history.
One school, one primary language for God’s sake …
Hi Rick, Welcome back. I am not sure what that means with the ESOL. I am not sure it means non English speakers. There are all sorts of levels. No one is taught in another language.
That seems like a lot of ESOL for middle school.
I have to wonder whether the people in PWCS’ planning office have any brains whatsoever. Forgive me for being so blunt, but I seriously question whether they are capable of adequately performing their jobs. Bear with me for a moment so I can explain, but what I just said is pretty harsh.
Reagan MS was supposed to relive overcrowding at Bull Run, Marsteller, and Gainesville MS. It will open in the Fall of 2012 at 93% of capacity (7% below capacity). That year BRMS will go from 133% to 91% of capacity, Gainesville will go from 100% to 106% of capacity, and Marsteller’s enrollment will be unchanged. Both Reagan and BRMA will remain below capacity until 2015, while Gainesville and Marsteller will see their enrollment increase 7 – 13% more. Both schools will have more than 300 more students than they were built to handle.
Remember, MS is only 3 years and the kids who will be dealing with this excessive overcapacity at Gainesville and Marsteller are today’s 4th, 5th, and 6th grade students – students who have never attended a single year of school where enrollment was less than 120% of capacity (except for the 4th graders who will have one year of at or slightly above capacity enrollment next year in Elementary school). So these are the kids who have been, I’m sorry to say, screwed every year and will continue to be screwed for the next 3 – 5 years.
Now, in the fall of 2014 that beautiful new K-8 school is supposed to open in Nokesville. It will house 900 students – 100 per grade so approximately 300 of those students will be MS students. Conceivably that school will relieve overcrowding at Marsteller and Gainesville, but, by 2014 Marsteller and Gainesville will be approximately 600 students above capacity, and there are no plans to build another MS in the county until 2018.
In 2014, without the new Nokesville school factored in, BRMS is projected to be at 94% of capacity and Reagan will be at 102%.
How difficult would it be to create a two year redistricting plan – one which would apply for the 2012 / 2013 SY (when Reagan opens) and the 2013 / 2014 SY, and change when the Nokesville K-8 school opens in the Fall of 2014? In the past we’ve tried not to have short term redistricting plans because they’d cause too much fluctuation, but that was for elementary school, not Middle school. Middle School is only three year, and with a two year redistricting plan we could relieve overcrowding at Marsteller and Gainesville and the kids would only have to flip schools one time (today’s 3rd graders would flip one time between 6th and 7th grades, today’s 4th graders would flip between 7th and 8th grades, and today’s 5th graders would flip after 6th grade, but that was going to happen anyway with Reagan opening and they’ll be entering HS when the Nokesville school opens so that flip won’t affect them).
I just seems very unfair to have two below capacity and two schools significantly above capacity when a short term redistricting plan could alleviate that overcrowding.
Also – it seems increasingly apparent that the Nokesville K – 8 school has not been designed with the needs of the community in mind as the MS portion of it is no where near large enough to manage the excess enrollment in that area. Nokesville K-8 is barely in the planning stages and may need to be reconsidered.
I am actually more concerned over the number of teachers arrested for inappropriate behavior with students. What is going on here?
@KimS
That isn’t the biggest problem Reagan has. It is sitting on top of a lake. All it takes is one look at that school from Silver Lake for any adult’s radar to start bleeping. M iddle schoolers and lakes don’t mix. Furthermore, the entire concept of the lake has been spoiled.
As to unfair, there has been no mention of Parkside and Stonewall Middle. They are always over capacity and very much western end schools. Why are they being left out of the fairness mix?
Diversity is increasing throughout Western PWC. When we moved here eight years ago, it was a predominantly “white” community. Now, when I look at our playground, it looks like the United Nations. It’s awesome.
These people complaining about kids who don’t speak English should remember that we live in the DC Metro area. It is going to be diverse, and the more populated the area becomes, the more diverse it will become. When was the last time you saw a U.S. city or large town filled with only white, English speaking people? This is the real world, folks, and we have to share it with others.
Incidentally, I thought people WANT immigrants to learn English. Or is it more like, “We want people to learn English–just not in our schools”?
ESOL: the difficulty when tossing up a statistic like 14% for Middle School (or MCPS Division wide 32% LEP) is you don’t get a public available breakout by specific language/country of origin. Over at Birmingham Green, there are 26 languages (inlcluding English) spoken by the staff….Orient, Africa, Caribbean, South America…all of the continents. I also think that little number is reflective of the diversity of the area.
Unfortunately, when some people hear “ESOL” they think “Hispaninic” – but then, if school districts put out a little bit more positive PR about the language diversity (Dave Rumford CEO Birmingham Green is very proud of the diversity), maybe less reaction, more thinking. Exposure to other cultures can be a positive thing given my own experience with world-wide assignments in the military and picking up four languages.
@Raymond
Is that accurate? the 32% LEP for Manassas City? Are you telling me that 1 out of 3 kids is non-English speaking? How long are kids staying in ESOL? That just seems very high to me. What am I missing?
@Lafayette
Laf–is “diversed” like “refudiated”? I believe the word is “diversified”. ;-0
@George S. Harris
You are correct. I had no idea you were a “grammar police”. I thought they only existed on other blogs. 😉
I was pissed off when I first read this.
He has gotten me more than once, Laf.
I hate Palin for creating refudiated. I always have to stop now and sort it out in my head.
@Moon-howler
Moon, that number is right…for FY2011, we are at 32% of total enrollment of 7,025. And we are the highest in the greater Washington Area. Take a look at the Washington Area Boards of Education Guide at the link below – it also includes data on PWCSchools. Apoligize for the long link – guess MCPS IT Department doesn’t know what “short URL” means?
At when you look at the prelim data from Census 2010 (previously discussed here in an early posting), the City has a high diverse population. The City has a large African, Oriental, and Latin Countries living here.
http://manassascity.va.schoolwebpages.com/education/page/download.php?fileinfo=RlkyMDExV0FCRS1maW5hbC5wZGY6Ojovd3d3NS9zY2hvb2xzL3ZhL21hbmFzc2FzY2l0eS9pbWFnZXMvZG9jbWdyLzEyNjVmaWxlNzQzNC5wZGY=
KimS,
I wouldn’t blame the planning commission as much as I would blame the Board of Supervisors. I’ve said this before, so pardon me for repeating myself, but the Piedmont Community was approved with only $1 million in school proffers. By the time the County was ready to purchase land they couldn’t acquire it for that price. The Piedmont Community, now almost completely occupies the 1 elementary school site that the County had in Haymarket (Gainesville ES which was subsequently replaced by Mountain View Elementary School). Bull Run Middle School was proffered by Heritage Hunt and Battlefield by Dominion Valley.
In terms of this ‘issue’ the having too many LEP or Economically Disadvantaged students at Bull Run. It’s a non-issue. The kids they are complaining about are already students at the school. The school’s boundaries don’t add any new students, it just removes kids, thereby increasing the percentages. It strikes me that they are simply an ill informed handful of parents who are overreacting and behaving badly.
“When was the last time you saw a U.S. city or large town filled with only white, English speaking people? ”
You know, you threw “white” in there.
“This is the real world, folks, and we have to share it with others. ”
Yes but it’s also a sovereign nation and one where there will be a backlash to the way our elected “leaders” have refused to enforce our laws, because it makes them and their friends richer.
Retraction. I see what is going on now. Plan 5b which is still listed as being under consideration splits the Coverstone neighborhood in half and adds Virginia Oaks to balance the numbers.
@ MH and Raymond re: ESOL classification
From what I understand a child is classified as ESOL if their native language or the primary language spoken at home is not English. That “label” (ESOL) remains with the student for as long and he / she is in public school, even if they are fluent in English.
ESOL students who have just begun school are given a one year-ish waiver from taking state SOL exams (or from having their scores count). I’m not absolutely clear on the length of the waiver but understand that if a student who does not speak English begins school in December, he / she will not have to “take” the state SOL exams that Spring. Whether the waiver extend to the following Spring is something I’m unclear on.
The only exception to the waiver is for Math SOLs. ESOL students are required to take the state Math SOL in their first year of enrollment for scoring, no matter their English proficiency. Prior to the Spring 2007 exams the scores of first year ESOL students on the Math SOL were not included in the published overall totals for schools and districts. Starting with the Spring 2007 exams, the year before our first group of Math Investigations 3rd graders took the SOL, those scores were included in the overall totals.
Are the SOLs given exclusively in English?
My guess…is highly unlikely!! Nice to see you back on the blog.
SOLs are given in English. There is a plain English version that has less ‘languaging’ in it.
ESOL students are supposedly limited to x number of semesters.
I don’t think it is cut and dry as to who is placed in the esol program and who isn’t.
I don’t think SOL kids have to take math the first year. They generally are not put in ESOL for that course prior to high school.
What does Math Investigations have to do with esol?
Hi Rick! The SOLs are given in English only.
From the DOE web site
“All students in tested grade levels and courses are expected to participate in Virginia’s assessment program, unless specifically exempted by state or federal law or by Board of Education regulations. Virginia’s assessment system includes students with disabilities and limited English proficient (LEP) students. Students with disabilities and LEP students may take Standards of Learning tests with or without accommodations or they may be assessed through alternate or alternative assessments. The tests that comprise the Virginia Assessment Program are offered in English only; administration of the tests in other languages is not permitted.”
http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/participation/index.shtml
Students are only permitted to take the “plain English” version of the SOLs if they score within a set range on the English proficiency assessment. All students who are labeled “English Language Learners” (ELL) are permitted an exemption from testing as follows:
“exemption from testing where permitted with an explanation for the exemption
– applicable for grades 3 through 8 reading only for LEP students who have been enrolled in United States schools for less than 12 months
– applicable one time for science during grade 3 only
– applicable one time for history and social science during grades 3 through 8
– applicable one time for writing during grade 5 or 8
– not applicable for mathematics
– not applicable for any end-of-course test”
From….. http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/participation/lep_guidelines.pdf
Sorry MH – brain cramp! I forgot to answer your question “What does Math Investigations have to do with esol?”
It doesn’t, except that inclusion of first year ESOL Math scores in school, district, and state totals made it impossible to compare pass and advanced rates from after 2007 to before 2007 because the populations reported were different and you couldn’t look at changes in test scores and determine whether those changes were due to inclusion or implementing a new math curriculum.
2007 just happened to be the year immediately before our first group of MI students sat for the 3rd grade math SOL and the year when roughly 50% of our 3rd graders were “early implementing” Investigations. PWC saw a slight decline of 1% in pass rates when comparing 2005 & 2006 to 2007, but there’s no way with publicly available data to determine whether that decline was due to ESOL inclusion or MI. No that it matters, but advanced rates dropped 7% that year.
When the scores for the 2008 exams were available pass rates were unchanged from 2007 and PWCS concluded that this was evidence that MI was working. Any concerns that pass and advanced rates were down from 2006 were dismissed because of ESOL inclusion in 2007.
Thanks KimS. So I am assuming you are not a fan of MI? What do you dislike?
I stand corrected on the esol exclusion in math.
@KimS
Kim, thank you as you have hit the nail on the head about the ESOL label vs. those who actually have English comprehension difficulties (aka Limited English Proficient – LEP – which to me is a more accruate category label). Within the City of Manassas with that large 32% number, it gets sort of tossed aside once you dig down through the Virginia Report Card on the City. When you look at how many of the around 7,000 students were LEP Reading Exempt, it is only about 20. Test scores breakouts by grades for the LEP are comparative to the other group headings.
@Raymond,
Do away with NCLB and you can get rid of a lot more of your ESOL designees.
Moon, agree with you….I know more than one teacher from the BS through PhD level who says “Nick-Lib” needs to go away.
All those AYP categories required by NCLB need to go away and we need one category – STUDENT. If a child is in our schools he / she deserves an education that meets his / her needs. Sometimes that might mean providing language support, sometimes support in core subjects, and sometimes providing instruction that challenges a kid who learns fast. Either way, our job in the schools is to provide every child with an education that meets their needs.
MH – I’m not particularly a fan of MI, though it does do some things well, especially stuff in the early grades (K, 1st, and parts of 2nd). I think the program has some fairly significant gaps, like computational fluency, fractions, decimals, geometry, and certain statistics topics. I think there are other programs that are just as good as MI in the topics it covers well (sometimes better) without the content gaps MI has. For those reasons I think PWCS could have made a better choice. It’s all moot because PWCS has decided what it decided, but with textbook adoption beginning again in the next couple of months, I suspect math textbooks will be an election issue.
Parents seem to get nervous about math when it isn’t something they are comfortable with. I remember that being the case with ‘new math.’
Math educators cannot even agree on calculator use.
I have heard this is the last year portfolios will be used in lieu of SOL testing also.
Totally agree about sub groups being replaced with the word STUDENT.
Glad to hear things aren’t as bad as I had thought they might be.
Classification into ESOL and whether or not one can take the SOL. Interesting. I live less than a block from a neighborhood elementary school, where the Hispanic immigrant population is probably up around 60%. Add a variety of other immigrant children, and you have a virtual international school. As activist participants in Neighborhood Watch, Mrs. W and I interact very often with these kids. And I’ll be darned if the Hispanic kids aren’t speaking fluent English with an American accent, even if Spanish is the language of the home. Even more startling is that the Hispanic kids, while engaged in sports and just at play, are speaking English to each other. The power of transformation of the American culture even surprises me sometimes. But I would guess this is just a repeat of what happened to the first generation children of our own immigrant ancestors. Nice to see good history repeated.
When I was in elementary and middle, students attended classes with others who were at the same individual proficiency and learning rate. Accelerated, middle-of-the-road, and below grade-level students took classes that were designed for their particular learning level. Students could and did move to different levels depending on their academic performance during a semester.
I always thought that putting students in classes according to their learning level was good for the student and good for the teacher. Now, I am told that students in Virginia at all levels of proficiency have to be thrown in together due to a federal law that forbids any classification due to performance.
Is this true? And if so, is the federal law NCLB? It seems to me that lumping all kids in the same class does a disservice to students and imposes an additional burden on teachers.
@Moon-howler
As I understand it, children who (seemingly) have a solid command of the English language are assigned to ESOL if their parents aren’t primarily English speaking. At least that’s what a teacher told me about a few English-speaking children in my child’s school who were also in ESOL. I think that’s a very sensible placement.
@Casual, not sure. Older kids aren’t but perhaps younger ones are. I think that ones who appear proficient are placed on monitor. They don’t actually receive services but are … monitored, to ensure that they are making adequate progress.
Kelly, when I was a kid some of the places I went to school did that. It was called homogenious grouping. Then it got called tracking. There are pros and cons, pedagogically speaking. It is frowned on nowadays although I don’t think it is against the law.
Back in the day, way back, kids (all lunch carrying English speakers) were separated into classes based on learning ability. The bozos who didn’t give a crap about education were kept from interfering with those that accepted education, and the system worked. Today we throw everyone together, and guess what, the ability for each to learn at their own capable level has been diminished to support those of lesser capability. This country is, or was, great by supporting those that excelled, not by forcing them to be held back for the sake of others less capable. Today the only thing that excels in public school IS diversity. Schools get an A for diversity, but a C for promoting those that can.
I’m with Kelly and SA on this one!
Back in the day, right here in good ole PWC we were put in classes based on learning level. It makes sense to have kids on the same level and learning at the same pace in classes together. I know life is not fair. It really isn’t fair to have kids on different skill levels lumped together. It’s not fair to those kids on higher level to be slowed down, and by the same token it’s not fair to those kids that are at a lower level, because they will struggle to keep up the pace.
I’m so glad I only have one more year of dealing with the schools.
Actually, homogenious grouping has been frowned upon for the past 3 decades in this county. All the smart kids shouldn’t be in one elementary class and all the dumb ones in another. Where Laf went to elementary school, the county rules were pretty much ignored. 😈
Just out of curiosity, how would anyone ever sort out the merit pay? Reward the teacher of the smart kids and take money back on the teacher who has the dumb ones?
Prince William County has advanced math classes, IB programs, bio-tech programs and accelerated English classes. There are foreign language classes. There are science classes in advanced bio, chem and physics. There are ways to separate the chaff from the wheat.
The place where heterogenious grouping hurts kids the most is elementary school, especially in the smaller schools. Even so, kids have reading groups and math groups based on achievement. But I will agree that elementary teachers have their hands tied by having too many learning levels in one class. I have never read or heard of a solution to this problem.
SA, when was the last time you were in a school? I think you are reading too much political mumbo jumbo.
Something to consider: Are all kids going to college? No. What do our schools do for those who aren’t college bound? In my opinion, that is the area of greatest weakness. We sorely lack good vocational programs.
Kim,
Great information, thank you for your contribution. NCLB has done more to leave children behind than anyone could have imagined.
My kids are in montessori, where they begin by combining the manipulation of specific math materials but then move onto formal calculations.
@Elena, but it sounded so good on paper. I don’t think anyone in congress wants to defund something with the name No Child Left Behind. Serious, who wants to leave children behind?
Where Laf went to elementary school, the county rules were pretty much ignored. 😈
Bwahahahaha!! You know that was the IT school for decades. Rules, what rules? They wrote their own. Especially one 4th grade teacher at that school with the initials VG. Need I say more?
I just wanted to update you that the Prince William County Public Schools (PWCS) Office of Facilities Services has made a correction in the middle school demographics reported in the PWCS Student Demographic Report, 2010-11. The corrected information affects the baseline Limited English Proficient (LEP) percentages presented in the Reagan Middle School Boundary plans but does not affect the calculated LEP percentages for Plans 5 and 5b, nor does it affect the minority, economically disadvantaged, or overall student numbers.
The corrected baseline LEP numbers are 9.3 percent for Marsteller (instead of 12.6), 7.1 percent for Gainesville (instead of 18.3), and 6.8 percent for Bull Run (instead of 3.0). For more information, go to the boundary planning web page ( http://facilitiesservices.departments.pwcs.edu/modules/cms/pages.phtml?sessionid=5d4245eab95e983ce8329baaae136b58&pageid=149014&sessionid=5d4245eab95e983ce8329baaae136b58 ).
In the end, only Don voted for it. Once I thought about Virginia Oaks being Trenum’s district, I realized this was a no go. I feel bad the Piedmont people wasted their time. Actually, not too many showed up but one woman had the nerve to complain about the increase in minorities. UNBELIEVABLE!