After President Obama said he wasn’t going to second guess the Supreme Court Justices, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner was not as shy to put on his constitutional law professor hat:
At a Politico Playbook breakfast on May 25, Geithner was asked by host Mike Allen about the negotiations over default and the debt ceiling.
“I think there are some people who are pretending not to understand it, who think there’s leverage for them in threatening a default,” Geithner said. “I don’t understand it as a negotiating position. I mean really think about it, you’re going to say that– can I read you the 14th amendment?”
Geithner whipped out his handy pocket-sized Constitution. Allen tried to brush it aside. “We’ll stipulate the 14th Amendment,” he said.
“No, I want to read this one thing,” Geithner insisted.
“It’s paper clipped!” Allen observed, noting that Geithner’s copy of the Constitution was clipped so that it would open directly to the passage in question.
“‘The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for the payments of pension and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion’ — this is the important thing — ‘shall not be questioned,” Geithner read.
“So as a negotiating strategy you say: ‘If you don’t do things my way, I’m going to force the United States to default–not pay the legacy of bills accumulated by my predecessors in Congress.’ It’s not a credible negotiating strategy, and it’s not going to happen,” Geithner insisted.
Is Geithner correct? Can Congress legally not raise the debt ceiling? Geithner is feisty and tells it like it is. When is he going to get sick of all the BS and go back to his ivory tower?
you hear many people complain that the economy is sluggish because no one knows where it is headed – and blame Obama policies for it – well, the debt ceiling is one of these unknowns that have people in jitters.
and at the last week, we will hear how the Congress had to pull all nighters to get something done at the last minute (just like the budget) – they act like they are in College, forgetting that they themselves (BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE) voted in all this spending that is happening.
Once again, Pat hits a home run.
No all nighters, congress. Quite pontificating and posturing and get the job done.
Interesting little tidbit Geithner had in his pocket.
Wow. What part of shall not be infringed is misunderstood?
Oh, wait. Wrong amendment.
I see what he did there!
good for Geithner. The Repugs need to learn to respect the Constituion of the United States.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
So, what does this have to do with the debt ceiling? The debt is not being questioned. No one is stating that the debt is not valid. The discussion is….are we going to incur MORE debt without trying to pay down this one or reduce spending? This whole Constitutional “controversy” is smoke and mirrors. The 14th is clear. Its about questioning the validity of debt, not about questioning the wisdom of incurring more.
Tell us what YOU would do to pay it down since the money has already been spent?
Tell us the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling or paying one’s debts.
Well, how is the money already spent, if the debt ceiling to borrow MORE money, has not been lifted? We’ve spent more money that we haven’t borrowed?
Our resources are enough to pay any service on the debt. Of course, our Congress would then have to decide what services would have to be cut. Which is exactly what happens when you owe money. One has to cut spending and prioritize.
Is the solution to continue borrowing money to pay the vig? Do we let the debt to the loan shark get bigger?
I’ve already put out what I would do. For one thing, to start, I would cut spending across the board by 10%. At least. That would be a good start. Then I would take a look at consolidating services, departments, etc. And I would take a good look at SS, Medicare, and Medicaid reform. I would decide what our military needs are and make adjustments. For one thing, I would not be spending billions bombing Libya. If Europe cannot defeat Libya, why are we in NATO? Its supposed to be a mutual defense org. Apparently, since the 90’s, we are the only ones doing the actual work.
Since Osama was killed, I would do a surge to disrupt the Taliban even more, declare victory, and leave. In Iraq, we won. Why are we still there? If they haven’t figured out how to be a civilized country by now, they’ll never get it.
We have to decide what are we getting out of any military alliances and positioning.
If I had to raise the debt ceiling, I would make commensurate cuts.
But, this isn’t actually the discussion. The discussion is the 14th Amendments relevance to the argument. I say that it has no relevance as it is written. That this is another tactic by the liberals to avoid making hard decisions.
I see that Starry is doing another drive by squirreling. Repugs? Really mature….
Is repug the same maturity level as Obama care? How about calling Democrats socialists?
I thought NATO responsibilities were supposed to be shared?
Yes, we have spent the money that the payment will be due on.
Those are the things you would do. Now what if everyone else didn’t like your ideas? What would you do about that? Do you agree that there are certain government finances that should be prioritized? How about salaries? Does a worker just go in one day and find out their pay is cut by 10%? how about disaster victims?
All of this is easier said than done. You can’t treat SS, Medicare and medicaid alike. If folks only knew enraging lumping those three items together were. My husband and I have paid thousands and thousands of dollars into mediCARE and social security for years. You are lumping us together with people who often haven’t paid jack-sh!t into medicaid. Sorry, I really don’t feel like being treated like a welfare recipient when I enroll in medicare. Neither do a whole crop of baby boomers who have also paid into mediCARE for almost a half century.
As a person who pays over $500 out of pocket for health care at the moment, platitudes just don’t cut it.
As to the 14th, you don’t think children born in the United States (All persons born or naturalized in the United States means ‘born.’ That’s sort of hard to argue with.
Well, Obama Care is not an insult to anyone. Its a description of the healthcare he promoted. It was his baby.
NATO responsibilities are shared. Yet we provide most of the firepower and support. Some NATO allies are in Afghanistan but do not do combat or support. They actually have “working hours.”
As I said, the payments can be made on our current debt.
And yes, we may have to cut salaries and fire people and close departments. Why is the government supposed to be immune to fiscal realities. I just saw that Gates is stating that military pay and benefits may be cut. Why not the rest of the government workers?
And yes, you paid into SS and Medicare for years. Its not welfare. It was a tax. They’ve already spent that money. I was lumping the programs together because they are the main “entitlements”, not because SS and Medicare are the same type of program. The government has no fiduciary responsibility to pay out on those programs. Its not your money any more than the money taken by the IRS. That’s why SS and Medicare are bad. You pay for FUTURE services, but they don’t have a responsibility to provide said services. They’ve been lying to us for years. But no one listens to us “extremists” when we complain that the government doesn’t HAVE to pay us back. So, if we go broke, if we raise the debt ceiling again and again and again, and we end up servicing our debt with our entire budget….or we crash because no one will LEND US any money or we get hyperinflation because we are printing money…….how will you get SS or Medicare then? That’s what happens when we have uncontrolled spending.
So, yes, we need cuts in all of the spending. Including reforming SS and Medicare.
As for the 14th, this isn’t about citizenship. The 14th Amendment is also about recognizing debts incurred by the governments in the US. This was article 4 of the Amendment.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
No court case has ruled on the citizenship of ILLEGAL immigrants children, only on LEGAL immigrants: United States v. Wong Kim Ark 169 U.S. 649 (1898).
All I ask is for clarification.
Is this entire blog brain dead? Am I the only one who remembers the democrats filibuster-proof majority in the last Congress?
Obama and Congress passed the stimulus, Obamacare, and the last budget without any Republican support. So the last $3 trillion or so of debt are wholly owned by the Dems. Given that these bills were passed against their stringent objections, the Repubs owe the president and Dems exactly nothing.
And Geitner acts as if the only way to meet US debt obligations is to increase the debt limit. The other way is to reduce spending by eliminating Obamacare and overhauling the other social programs.
As a result, I have to disagree with MH. Pat Herve’s post represented a swing and a miss to me.
So why don’t you Republican guys just seceed from the non-Republicans? @Kelly
That way you won’t have to slum with the brain dead.
Just out of curiosity, where was that medical reform plan coming in from the Republicans after 8 years of Republican rule? Did you all get rid of it?
You can’t whine and bitch about medicare and medicaid (and no I don’t like them in the same sentence.) and refuse to fix the medical situation in this country.What is it now, 50 million without any medical insurance at all? How many on medicaid?
Number on Medicaid as of June 2011: a little over 68 Million
Number on Medicare as of June 2011: a little over 48 Million
Thanks Raymond. I realize that not everyone on mediCARE has paid in to it for bunches of years but at least half have. More will have as the baby boomers hit the program. More women worked outside the home and therefore paid into the plan.
And for the youngsters out there, medicare isn’t really free. Part A is but then there is B, and that gets nabbed right out of the social security check. Seniors who aren’t indigent pay for a bridge plan that is not cheap and then there is the rx plan which they must pay for. I think part A just covers the hospital.
Raymond, help me out here.
Now about this 68 million on medicaid. Why is that? Does that include children?
If 68 million people are on medicaid and 40 million are uninsured, and then we have 48 million in medicare. 308 million people in the USA.
So less than half of the people in the USA are either providing their own insurance or their employer is.
And who ends up paying for all those who don’t have insurance? WE DO.
that’s the reason I pay over $500 a month for health care. And that doesn’t even count all the taxes and crap we are paying on top of that.
Tell me again why you all object to “Obamacare”.
Someone goes to the hospital and walks on their bill. Where is the recovery? Your pocket.
Its easier and cheaper just to pay up front. Good grief.
Yeah … sorry about the brain dead statement …. That was a little emotional, but I stand by the rest of it.
The problem with the social programs is more structural than anything else. When social security was first instituted, life expectancy was only for a few years after retirement. Today people are living and collecting for 20-25 years after retirement. I think these programs (social security, Medicare, etc.) should be adjusted so that people can collect for a maximum of 5 years.
The other part would be to extract government from medicine and have insurance cover fewer things …. Mainly the catastrophic sorts of treatments and procedures.
@Kelly, well what would you have the seniors do? Die after 5 years? I envison some of the old Indian tribe rituals of the old people wandering off in the snow and dying. From your vantage point, perhaps that’s a plan. To me, after paying thousands of dollars into a plan, and being one who has gotten ‘long in the tooth,’ your plan sucks.
You probably think that Governor Wilson in Wisconsin is right on also.
Let’s see, we get rid of pensions, we supress wages, at least for public servants, union bust, we cap social security and medicare to five years.
Actually, I have never felt more undervalued from anythng a person on this blog has said than those comments. Do I get to use one of Sarah Palin’s death panels?
And you people wonder why I have growing rancor in my heart for this new breed of Republicans.
I think drop dead and fend for youself says it all. People of my generation planned for retirement and many of us did the prescribed thing. There are a lot of folks who are going to be working until they are 75 years old or who drop dead on the job after the crash of 2008 also because they lost so much of their retirement.
Kick ’em off social security and medicare that they paid in to. It will speed the process along.
Kelly, not to be emotional but I think your plan is full of crap and only shows your self centeredness on your own youth. You might feel differently in a couple of decades.
I object to Obama Care because it sets a precedent that the Feds can mandate that citizens purchase something. Once that’s set, it will only grow.
I object because the bill is a horrible, bloated, corrupt, POS that wasn’t read and debated.
I object because if you want to reform medical care in the states, then it can be done with streamlined smaller bills that focus on the subject.
I object because the bill plays fast and loose with the law when politically connected entities can get a pass.
I object because those that promoted it lied about it.
I would have fewer objections if the feds had just promoted a “public health care system” paid for by taxes At least that would have been honest. As long as there is a private system available, a public system would just be a safety net.
Oh. wait. 50% of Americans pay no taxes. Well, get to taxing.
Well I left out some details …. I am not saying that people such as yourself who are already on SS should be cut off. But the gig is definitely up on the Ponzi scheme that is social security.
There are going to have to be major changes over the next decade in order that expectations for SS benefits will be minimized for current and future workers. People are receiving more from SS than they put into it. There is no justification for that.
You did not say this, but the essence is that current workers have to pay into a system that has little chance of being solvent when they retire. That does not seem fair either.
The money is already gone. So the question is not will someone get shafted? The question is which group will get shafted? I say that we should put limits on overall benefits to “spread the pain” and develop responsible management practices to keep the system going. And let’s not forget, these limited benefits would apply to my friends, my family, and myself also. So there’s no reason to take this personally …..
@Kelly, I have never said I was on SS or Medicare. I hope to be at some point. My husband is on both. In fact I pay over $500 a month for my own health care.
Some people receive less than they put in to SS also. It all depends on when they bite the big one and how much SS they draw.
My generation was also told that we were paying into something that wouldn’t be solvent when we got there. I paid for my grandmother and parents. Pay as you go. Someone will have to pay for me. Maybe it will be the illegal immigrants who are paying into SS and they will never capture a dime of the money. Therre is a scheme for you.
Actually there is a reason to take it personally when one looks at some of the Republican iniatives around the nation. I have made no secret that I am in the VRS system. Its a collection of things that I feel are either part of my life plan or are soon to be part of my life plan. Its a little different when its you looking down the barrel of a gun.
How many people on this blog have supported Walker, spoken against VRS and state pensions, spoken in favor of doing away with unions for public employees, said public employees make too much money, want to do away with social security as we know it and speak of medicare like it is an entitlement workers have not contributed to. That is why I get so furious when it is likened to medicaid.
That is why I would NEVER vote republican nowadays. I figure I would just vote to be in the poor house. Republicans have to get more ‘middle class friendly’ before I would ever consider it.
@Moon-howler
Back on #13, you asked what was involved with Medicaid – aside from health insurance for the poor (meaning within the Annual Poverty Guidelines issued by US Health & Human Services) – it also includes the hospital payments you mentioned which is why smaller nonprofits especially in the rural areas are getting slaughtered in costs.
Medicaid also includes long-term care primarily Nursing Homes and Skilled Nursing Facilities. Assisted Living is not paid for Medicaid except on a case by case very rare basis.
Moon, children are included in Medicaid. State Health Insurance Program (SHIP) or Childrens Health Insurance Program (CHIP) depending on which State you are in. Often, as in the case of Viriginia, we bundle the adult and children Medicaid under SHIP. It also includes pregnant women. Dental care for children is also bundled in Medicaid.
Medicaid also includes the disabled with emphasis on support for the blind.
Medicaid is means tested – all income and assets are part of the application process, and if you do not meet the poverty guideline levels, you are not enrolled.
Medicaid also has a growing population of those with HIV/AIDS, and this is becoming a major concern especially since Medicaid does not pay for the treatment drugs, but does health care. Figure that one out, and you win a year in the Bahamas at the resort of your choosing!
Finally, keep in mind Medicaid IS NOT any shape, size of form of “Social Insurance” like Medicare. The Feds put up part of the money, the States the other half. In Virgina, at least at the moment, the percentage is an even 50/50.
Raymond, have I ever expressed my gratitude to you? You are a tremendous asset to this blog with your vast storehouse of information.
With medicaid including all of that, no wonder it is sucking society dry. However, what are the alternatives? We are a civilized nation. It makes health care look better and better. I keep thinking pay me now or pay me later.
Does the money for medicaid come out of the general funds for both state and federal?
Who establishes the poverty levels?
On the Social Security debate above between Kelly and Moon:
One item left out of the debate was that when the Act was signed by President FDR all those years ago, there still was multigenerational housing. As parents aged, a child stepped up and all cohabitated. Social Security was never meant to be a sole-source of income. It is only in our “modern” times it became that. Family responsibiltity provided an offset to government payment.
Moon, your quick take on MediCARE back in #13 is on the spot! Could not have given a better snapshot.
PART A is inpatient hospital, skilled nursing facilities, hospice and home healthcare for post hospitlization if needed (this is the free part we paid for in our payroll taxes). PART B is the one we pay for as you wrote to get doctors services, outpatient services.
Now for the other two: PART C is the Medicare Advantage Plans for an HMO, PPO, Private-Fee-For-Service (PFFS) or Special Needs Plan (SNP). AARP makes a fortune off of this part along with several other insurance companies. To have this PART C, you pay for it if you choose when your PART B is paid.
PART D is the Prescription Drug Plan either as part of the Medicare Advantage Plan, or purchased seperately. You have to have PART A or PART B to get PART D.
@Raymond, I sure forgot about the home health care part of that. Not sure I ever knew which alphabet that was attached to.
People seem to think that B, C, D are all freebies. NOT. And I am not suggesting that they should be. What I do not know is if the feds chip in and help with B, C, D or if that is all patient paid.
Well I know that D (rx) is subsidized.
Thanks to George Harris, my husband is saving $50 bucks a month on his. You have to be very careful in your shopping and it takes a phd to sort through D and D. D is where Mr. Howler is saving money. He had much more plan than he needed.
Moon, Medicaid is General Funds at Fed and State. No special pot of dollars.
As for the poverty guidelines, it is based in part on Census data, and then for access to health programs, Health & Human Services does a calculation. Below is the link out to the 2011 HHS Poverty Guidelines as it appeared in the Federal Register. If you skip the first section and look down to “Supplementary Information”, it will tell you how the guidelines are established. Further down the page are the charts.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/11fedreg.shtml
How the Census Bureau calculates Poverty:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/measure.html
Three weeks earlier: “NY representative whips out his pocket snake”
Actually, Jefferson’s political enemies were vicious to him. Maybe things weren’t so different. The started rumors about his ‘girl-friend.’