The Roanoke Times:
LEXINGTON — The arguments have been made thousands of times before. The Confederate flag is a symbol of history and Southern heritage. No, the flag is a symbol of hatred and racism.
In essence, the same arguments dominated a public hearing held Thursday night by the Lexington City Council to solicit input about an ordinance amendment that will effectively ban the display of the flags of the Confederacy from public light poles in the city.
City residents spoke first, and the majority, including whites and blacks, expressed support for the ordinance and described the Confederate flag as a symbol of slavery and oppression that is offensive to many. Once county residents and people from outside the area spoke, there was more opposition to the ordinance amendment and more insistence that the Confederate flag should be honored as a symbol of Southern heritage and the men who fought for the Southern side.
After a hearing of nearly three hours, in which strong emotions were expressed from both sides and there was some rowdiness at times, the city council voted 4-1 to adopt the ordinance amendment.
The new Lexington ordinance’s section on flags specifies, “Only the following flags may be flown on the flag standards affixed to light poles in the city and no others:” — the American flag, the Virginia flag and the flag of the city of Lexington.
The ordinance does not prohibit people from carrying the Confederate or other flags or displaying them from private property — a reality cited by many people who supported the ordinance’s adoption.
Lexington has some compelling reasons to not have this ordinance. It is the home of both VMI and Washington & Lee University. Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee are both buried in Lexington. There is historic reason to fly the recognized Confederate Flag. Moreover, neither of the schools’ flags will be allowed to be flown.
I’m not so sure this isn’t a free speech issue. The private property argument really is fairly weak since as we all know here in Manassas, signage can be regulated also, even if on private property. There is something about going along through each of these little southern cities and towns and stamping out that which is as core to those towns as any brick and mortar building, that I find very offensive. Political correctness and modern times cannot be allowed to stamp out all southern heritage.
How were Confederate flags flown in Lexington before this issue was raised? Were the flags displayed for historial purposes or were they used to promote “Good Ole Boy” mentality by people with limited knowledge of history? You don’t have to be in the South to see this form of ignorance.
By the same token, people who respect and value history, especially southern history, need to step up to the plate and make certain, loudly and vocally, that these signs of our southern heritage aren’t used as symbols of hate and racial divisiveness. With that being very clear, I am sorry to see this ordiance come to Lexington, Virginia. We cannot erase the history of who we are and where we have been. As long as someone tries to do that, there will be those who keep alive the mentality that the south will rise again.
As I searched for an appropriate picture, I ran in to this video. Here is a very southern man. I would have characterized him as a Good Ole Boy until I listened to him. He certainly expresses one man’s point of view.
The above video does NOT express my point of view.
Further reading:
http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/articles_n36/flags-confederate-city.html
There was an attempt to ban the Confederate Flag in Lexington about 20 years ago. The ACLU defended the right for the flag to be displayed. Politics makes strange bedfellows. The opposings sides in 2011 seem to be the NAACP and the Sons of the Confederacy.
Is this one a little too hot for you all? I feel certain someone has an opinion.
We really do need to move on–it’s been 145 years since the war ended. We’re not flying the Union Jack any more or the Spanish flag in Florida, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico or California (as of yet) or the French flag in any part of what was the Louisiana Purchase.
When do we make an end of it? Reenactments are fine, but they too seem to be a bit out of place any more. Do you suppose the Japanese hold reenactments of the Rape of Nanking or the bombing of Pearl Harbor? Parades and commemorations are fine but holding reenactments with people pretending to kill each other in one of the worst tragedies this country has ever experienced seems just a little wierd to me. Why not hold a reenactment of the Battle of Little Big Horn? I know some of George Armstrong Custis’ relatives who would love to be involved I’m sure.
I don’t care much for reinactments either, George. My only concern is the idea that we can stomp out history. My husband said that after Pearl Harbor theyhad to put armed guards on the cherry trees in the tidal basin because people were so angry with the Japanese. Some people had tried to burn them down.
Is a flag that threatening? I suppose that is one of those situations in Lexington where it is easy to see both sides. I guess I bristle at reading that the confederate flag is the flag of slavery. I think that is a ridiculous statement. It is the symbol of a group of states who tried to secede.
I don’t think that time has anything to do with it but perhaps that is also my heritage. I grew up in a place where freezing certain articles, buildings and ideas in time was valued. Most of the rest of Virginia, outside NOVa seems that way to me.
Actually the Union Jack IS flown by a British citizen in my neighborhood. The Mexican flag is frequently flown in the US by Mexican legal and illegal immigrants.
I don’t see how this is anything but a free-speech issue. The Supreme Court upheld the burning of the American flag as an expression of free speech, even though it is offensive to many of us. I don’t see how the Confederate flag is any different. Whether it is a historical symbol or an expression of hate, the right to fly the Confederate flag is protected by the first amendment, even if the majority wants to put an end to it. Majority rules, but the minority has rights.
Should we all run for cover? Moon, Kelly, and Marin are all on the same sheet of music. Earthquake, flood, famine, and now this!
I sure saw a lot of flags during the World Cup. In fairness to Lexington, the ban is only on city owned poles. Private citizens can do what they want. I can see a city not wanting the criticism over something controversial.
However, a ordinance seems over the top. Those who petitioned for the ordiance should probably be asking themselves what they are really trying to accomplish and if the ordinance banning the confederate flag on anything owned by the city will reach that goal, whatever it is. I see it as an effort to stamp out history. While I might not otherwise have given a rat’s ass, I will feel compelled to display a confederate flag the next time I go to Lexington. Lee and Jackson and my heritage command me to do so.
Not to mention every nationality that puts a flag sticker on a vehicle. I know my mom sports a Salvadorian sticker.
Ordinances like this usually invite a lot of people from outside of the community to come in and show support for whatever is being banned.
Lets face it, people honor their heritage, regardless of where they live.
Ever get a song stuck in your head?
No, not “Dixie!’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP3K5a2ipAg
Most of you all are far too young to remember the above song.
Although, how about The Night they Drove Old Dixie Down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2rE9ZPu3HA
It is a story of pride. Trying to understand that war in today’s terms just simply doesn’t cut it. 1865 to the present is its own story. Perhaps Ken Burns should tackle that one.
Sounds like you guys have everything under control. Go get them.
@Moon
“Most of you all are far too young to remember the above song.” ah yes, Johnny Yuma…
The song they might remember – the real test is if they watched Nick Adams as Johnny Yuma…and the Johnny Cash song was the theme. If they don’t remember the show when it aired, then they are young..LOL!
Probably my favorite old classic about the Civil War was Johnny Horton’s “Johnny Reb”…especially the last verse” “When Honest Abe heard the news about your fall, the folks thought he’ld call a great victory ball. But he asked the band to play the song ‘Dixie’, for you Johnny Reb, and all that you believed”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9CWFU2VRNo
But on the flag: I shake my head and ponder if the reaction would be the same if, instead of the Battle Flag which is most often flown, and most think of as the Confederate Flag, that instead the National Flag was flown – particularly the First National Flag.
With the circle of stars and two red/one white stripe, my bet is most people would think it is just some form of patriotic banner or pennant, and not the First National Flag. It wasn’t till the Spring of 1863 the Battle Flag replaced the circle of stars.
I can also remember, at more than one Army Retreat Ceremony where Soldiers dressed in specific period uniforms and carried the Flag of the time, the Battle Flag was in the hands of the “Confederate” Soldier. In the history of the Army of the United States, the Battle Flag and the Units are recognized. Of course, different situation, different perspective by the people in the audience.
Raymond, probably not. The problem seems to be that various confederate flags have been hi-jacked and used for non-historical purposes. I have always thought the Bonnie Blue Flag was beautiful. I like flags in general and get miffed and vexed when they are misused or when people try to ban them.
I called Elena to tell her she might not want to admit to knowing me after putting up this post. She told me the day after Obama was elected she saw a pick up truck full of Ya-hooos driving down route `15 waving the confederate flag at people and shouting. What fools. It is people like this who cause cities like Lexington to have to restrict the display of history. Grrrrrr!!!
The Foxies are all over this story this morning. No conclusions.
We need to remember this is for the city’s poles. However, I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that the government is willing to throw the south’s heritage away in such a manner. It’s Lexington, Va. for crying out loud.
Frankly, I’m offended by the ruling. I will say this I have NEVER owned anything with the Confederate flag. However, I have NO problem with it being flown or worn. It’s real simple to me, it’s a military flag. Those that don’t understand that need to educate themselves. I must admit, I learned a lot over the Sesquicentennial. I have a picture Moon needs to post of a walkway bordered with the many different Confederate flags. It was quite a sight to see. Growing up in this county and at a time Prince William County History was actually taught in our public schools. This needs to make a comeback, but I know it won’t. This is unfortunate because we live in county that’s so rich in history. It’s more important to stress multiculturalism, meanwhile throwing our US, State and local history right out the window. I’m not saying we can’t learn about others, but we can’t not learn about our culture either.
In closing, shame on the Lexington city council.
Moon, aren’t you glad I finally posted? 👿
I think that it’s idiotic that they are banning it. However, I’m trying to think of a reason WHY the local government would fly the flag of another nation as an official flag? New Orleans doesn’t fly the French, Spanish, or the Confederate flags except in a historical context when showing the history of the area.
Instead of banning it, just don’t fly it. Its not as if they have no control over what gets flown. If future councils want to fly it, they’ll just reverse the ban.
Cargo,, should I just check in now? I am worried. I have also agreed with you. Someone help me and put me out of my misery!!!!
Tell us what courses you are taking?
I think flying it over government building is a little odd considering they were beaten and frankly the US was at war with the South as much as it’s been at war with the Japanese, the British and so on. Why I don’t get reinactments – can you imagine a reinactment of Pearl Harbor???!!!! Private individuals flying the flag should be permitted, of course!!! I’d rather a bunch of rowdies waving confederate flags than guns…
As with most nuisance situtations, don’t look. Don’t give them an audience. A flag doesn’t make you behave a certain way, it shouldn’t make you feel anyting either – I’ll have to work on my personal reactions to NYY flags and stickers……grrrrrr
@Juturna, don’t you think there might be opportunity to fly one in relation to Jackson or Lee? Does the town own any of the poles around those grave sites?
I certainly am not suggesting that they want to adorn the town with confederate bunting but it doesn’t get more ‘Confederate’ than Lee or Jackson. In a town with the history Lexington has, it seems like a silly fight to get in to. Whoever said it earlier, they control the flag poles. Just don’t fly confederate flags. Why have an ordinance?
Why not have an ordinance for the German and Japanese flags? grrrrrr
As a Yank through and through, I can see how the Stars and Bars can raise the hackles of many of our Black citizens. I think this most certainly has much to do with the misuse of that storied flag by the KKK and then by the segregationists in the mid-20th century — something which one sees once in awhile even today. Therefore, I cannot fault Blacks at all with being upset.
To me personally, however, that flag has come to symbolize just one point in time, the Civil War itself. No matter what you think about the “Cause,” it is hard to diminish the courage and determination with which the South fought in the face of such tremendous odds. Slavery was an evil; but, by and large, most of those who fought that war for the South were not evil. They were our brothers and sisters who disagreed with us. Abe Lincoln certainly recognized that even though he had to live through four years of personal wartime agony surrounded by the noise and smell of death. He could honor the foe for a battle hard fought and grieve for their losses. Why should I not follow his example of forgiveness?
For me the key thing which most brings honor to the Stars and Bars happened at Appomattox and was done by Robert E. Lee. When his anguished troops asked if they should not go into the Virginia hills and continue the battle, he told them that there had been enough of war and death and that it was time for peace and reconciliation. They should now go home and rebuild their own lives.
I consider that to have been a real turning point in the history of this nation. Had the war gone on even longer in the form of guerrilla warfare, might it not have been much harder for all of us to come back together as one nation? All honor to Lee for this. It was a mere 33 years later when Northern sons and Southern sons of Civil War veterans joined together to defeat the Spanish and only another 19 years when their grandsons in the AEF were sent to France to rescue the Old World. Where would we have been if the bitterness of 1861-1865 had been allowed to drag on and on?
I recently ran across a more modern story in this regard. It concerns someone in Mrs. Wolverine’s family in Missouri, a border state torn apart by divided loyalties during the Civil War. There was a ship called the USS Nevada. It was a battleship commissioned in 1916 as America’s first superdreadnaught. Her first wartime task in 1917 was to protect Atlantic convoys. On 7 December 1941, the USS Nevada, BB-36, was moored in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. In searching for Mrs. Wolverine’s cousin, I found the ship’s crew list, complete with dates and places of enlistment. That crew list was a portrait of America — boys from the North, the South, the East, and the West, grizzled old chief petty officers and smooth-cheeked young seamen, all under the same flag now.
When the Japanese bombs began to fall on that fateful day 70 years ago, the Nevada was the only battleship not locked into her berth by the presence of other ships. Her crew brought her into action and she became the only vessel on Battleship Row to be able to get underway. The Japanese aircraft went for her, hitting her with a torpedo and six bombs, killing 50 of her crew and wounding 109. But she fought back like a tigress. Her AA gunners downed four Japanese planes. She headed for the harbor entrance, severely damaged and on fire. When it was realized that, if she sank, she could block the harbor mouth, her crew turned her toward Hospital Point and deliberately ran her aground, all the while continuing to fight and downing three more Japanese planes. She survived.
But that was not the end of the story of the Nevada and her magnificent crew. She was resurfaced and sent to Puget Sound for repair and modernization. In 1943, she was in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska providing the firepower for the retaking of Attu from the Japanese Army. Then they sent her to the Atlantic for convoy duty. On 6 July 1944, she was firing her big guns at Utah Beach during the Normandy landings, bracketed 27 times by German gunfire from shore. They next moved her down to the Mediterranean, where she won a famous duel with the big German shore batteries during the invasion of southern France known to history as Operation Anvil Dragoon. And then it was back to the Pacific, where she was in the thick of the battles at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, being hit by a kamikaze plane. She survived them all. She won seven battle stars in all.
When the war ended and that proud ship was brought home, it was decided that she was now too old to be considered for active service. She was painted an awful color of red and sent to Bikini Atoll to serve as an experimental target for A-bomb tests. They dropped two A-bombs that day. When they went to check the results, they found that proud lady badly damaged and highly radioactive. But she had refused to sink. Not until August 1948 was she finally taken down in the Pacific as a target for naval gunfire exercises. She lies somewhere in the Deep not that far from Pearl Harbor.
When I look at the Stars and Bars and when I walk through the cemeteries with stones marked with CSA, I sometimes think that they also were at Pearl Harbor — and at Normandy and Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They were there in spirit with the courage and steel of their hearts within the crew of the USS Nevada. That for me is their real legacy.
Lee served the US Army for over 30 years before returning to Virginia after it seceded. Wonder what he’d think.
We know very clearly what Lee thought. He chronicled his opinion in letters and journals.
I believe it that the flag that has been ‘banned’ is the Second Confederate Navy Jack, 1863–1865. There are lots of Confederate flags. I don’t think they have all been banned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
Since Lexington owns the poles, why not just NOT fly Confederate flags rather than make a big issue over it?
The fight really is a symbolic one but there will be no winners. Now every parade will have a ‘forget–Hell NO’ division marching in it.
There is absolutely no reason why a confederate flag, which ever one, cannot be flown to honor Jackson or Lee. What else would you fly? jackson died under that flag. Lee actually didn’t die under any flag as a citizen. He wasn’t repatriated until August 5, 1975. No, that isn’t a misprint. When he died he was a legal resident, not a citizen.
Perhaps the final insult is that the Lees no longer had any home to go to since the Lee Mansion was taken over by Union forces. Many of the Lees are buried at Washington & Lee University.
The Civil War isn’t something we can just sweep under the rug. It happened and it will always be a part of our history. We need to be careful to preserve it as the historical event that it was.
This Lexington dust up is simply politics. Some things should just transcend politics.
@Wolverine
Just for you: Universal Soldier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxOP-YpBO6U&feature=fvst
I don’t care much for that song.
And on another note:
The Highwayman
This one seems to say the same thing without an anti war flavor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw1bHaUk1CM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKg1vMeaY5M
And just one more–Brothers in Arms–Dire Straits
Sorry, I got on a roll.
I wonder what he’d think about the confederate flag flying issues today.. Doubt that is chronicled 🙂
Under which flag was slavery legal the longest?
(A) United States Flag
(B) Confederate Flag
http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/wb/297623
Looks like the Lexington city council made the correct decision.
Answer to #23 – (A) – over eighty years.