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Last week the immigration issue kept creeping back into the conversations on here. Well let’s have at it.
Church leaders in Alabama are suing the state over their new bundle of anti-immigration laws. Why? The churches say that the laws prevent them from doing what churches do–minister to the poor. Some religions leaders say, as the law stands, that they could be arrested for feeding an immigrant or helping in times of sickness. In other words, they feel that the Alabama government in interfering with the separation of church and state.
Alabama has legislated new laws based on the F.A.I.R. model, similar to those first passed in the July 2007 Resolution here in PWC. These might even be more draconian.
Meanwhile, in Hoover Alabama, tea party forces support the new law:
HOOVER — Tea party members rallied in support of Alabama’s new law against illegal immigration Tuesday, bidding to send a message to a federal judge who is considering legal challenges by opponents who contend the measure is unconstitutional.
Tea partyleaderZan Green said she and other organizers timed the rally to coincide the Blackburn’s review of the law. The judge has said she would rule by Sept. 28 on the constitutionality of the law, which the Obama administration opposes as an overreach by the state into an area of federal authority.
“We were trying to do this while the judge is deliberating to let her know there are Alabamians who support this law,” said Green, president of the Rainy Day Patriots.
Rally participant Marcelo Munoz said Alabama needs the law because the federal government is doing a poor job of enforcing immigration laws. Describing himself as a legal immigrant from Chile, Munoz said backers of the law aren’t simply against Hispanics, whose numbers in Alabama more than doubled to about 185,000 in the last decade, according to Census figures.
“We’re coming out here to show we’re not racist. It’s not about targeting a particular group. It’s about enforcing the law,” said Munoz. “There’s a lot of common sense stuff in the law.”
Besides clamping down on businesses that hire illegal immigrants, the law requires schools to find out if students are in the country legally. Police also could arrest anyone during traffic stops on suspicion of immigration violations.
The Déjà vu is powerful. Make it go away. That school stuff is pretty tough legislation. So is the probable cause part of the new law. And just out of curiosity does Tito the Builder have an evil twin living in Alabama? That name seems vaguely familiar. I am not sure how one’s presence at a protest shows that a group is or is not racist, but ok. Whatever.
The tea party sure seems to be adding a lot of extras on to that ‘fiscal responsibility’ objective we all heard in the beginning. Should we assume that immigration issues are now part of that group’s political agenda? I know that many tea party groups have added social issues. I didn’t know about immigration.
More can be seen on the Alabama immigration laws at PBS or on the Religion and Ethic show this week on TV.
I knew there was a good reason churches were becoming irrelevant.
FAIR has its evil tentacles everywhere. Talk about one special interest group having undue influence over legislation!
First of all, since when did targeting children become acceptable EVER? Here is the reality, if you live in a house and pay rent, you pay for the schools. If you buy your groceries, clothes, any a host of other miscelaneous items in your county or state, you pay for schools. Having a green card does not mean you pay more for schools. And DUH, haven’t we had an exodus of immigrants from this country since the Great Recession. I imagine, the ones who are still here, lacking status, its probably because they have mixed marriages, American children, or children that have been here so long, they don’t know any other country as their own.
What this tells me is that real immigration reform is the only way to stop this craziness. Require immigrants to pay a fine, demonstrate they have been working, deny entitlement benefits for some specific period of time, deny citizenship to those that came here improperly as adults but allow them to earn a legal status.
This just in folks, when all these baby boomers retire in the next two decades, we don’t have the skilled population to fill their jobs. Now is the time to think about the future and the training for jobs that cannot be outsourced. Today we are not facing a labor shortage, but in not so distant future, it is a different story.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/04/13/retiring-boomers-will-leave-a-huge-hole-in-the-job-market/
The black Velvets are still talking about undocumented immigrants spawning young and still bitching because they can’t understand the 14th amendment. They are taking up arms to repell the invaders. It is like time has stood still.
Onward velvets, keep repelling. You sure cleansed the county of the scourge of illegals last time.
There are long-winded ones this time.
Elena, I thought we had a SKILLED labor shortage?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/11/eveningnews/main6764731.shtml
What’s holding her machine shop back isn’t a shortage of work. Instead, it’s a shortage of workers, whom she’s willing to pay $13 to $18 an hour.
“Thirty to 40 we could use right now,” Fillingham said.
And she’s not alone. The government says there are 227,000 open manufacturing jobs, more than double the number a year ago. One hundred eighty-three thousand have been created since December, the strongest seven-month streak in a decade.
Fillingham said it’s hard to fill these jobs because they require people who are good at math, good with their hands and willing to work on a factory floor.
She’s had to resort to paying people to learn on the job, like 25-year-old Matthew McDannel. The average manufacturing worker is more than twice his age.
“Maybe the work’s too hard,” said McDannel. “Maybe it’s too hot. Maybe people just think about it and they’re just, like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to do that.'”
By the year 2012 it’s estimated this country will be three million skilled workers short, and it’s not just in manufacturing sector. A recent survey found 22 percent of American businesses say they are ready to hire if they can find the right people.
It depends on where the jobs are and where the people are I suppose. That job requires people good in math, doing hot work, on a loud factory floor who want to make under $40,000 a year. What’s wrong with that picture? What are the benefits like? People with good math skills and good with their hands willing to career commit, want decent benefits and maybe even a little retirement.
i think those are marginal jobs actually. I am looking at the jobs through northern VA eyes also. I find it odd the benefits weren’t mentioned. Most companies are willing to train. IBM springs to mind. Job training is a huge part of their success program. Its worth paying people a decent salary to keep their investments.
I don’t have an answer. Has the lady invested in her local schools? Has she partnered with the school system to train those people with good hands and math skills? She might have to invest in some machinery and on the job training at that level to get what she wants. She could provide scholarships in the form of apprentist work. Not every graduate would have to make top dollar for a few months. A little pre-attaction could be at the school level if you knew you were going to have a job waiting for you when you get out. She wouldn’t even have to attract from the local school system. Surely there are some pockets of poverty in the area where kids would love to do some job training while in school in exchange for a guaranteed job when you graduate.
That’s one way to ‘grow the job market.’
If she looked a little further west at some of the Indian reservations, she would find all sorts of boys and girls who would like nothing more than to have a guaranteed job. Sometimes hiring is an investment. Its a little more than just placing an ad in the newspaper.
I have a question for all those ‘Bama Churches – for a State where 13% of families are in poverty, and 17% of your families out of your almost 5 million people, where have you been all along?
Oh wait – the run-of-the-mill isn’t a political hotspot to get you in the papers.
Ray, I have to stand up for churches here. Churches all over the place, including Manassas, Virginia, do a great deal for those less fortunate. They don’t shout and wave it about. Meals are prepared, electric bills are paid, the sick are given rides, etc, all without that hotspot that gets you in the paper. I don’t know of a single church in the area that would ask to see your papers before they gave you a meal.
I believe the Alabama churches’ position is, if they continue to do what they do in their Christian outreach (and it doesn’t have to be Christian, necessarily) what is to stop the state from arresting those who provide for the poor if the poor are undocumented?
I don’t think churches can fix poverty. I do think they can take the edge off and the hunger off. That’s jist what churches do.
Let the churches convert to a Latin American embassy, and all will be fine. Besides, those folks who are illegal will have to leave the church grounds eventually, and then they are F.A.I.R. game. Oh by the way, it’s anti-ILLEGAL immigration laws. Distorting that simple fact always amuses me. No bias there!
SA why should churches convert to anything. They do what churches do which is to help those less fortunate. SA, do you really think churches cater to just Latinos?
Check with Cindy to see who her church feeds. Maybe she can give you the demographics.
SA, if you cannot tell me who is documented and who isn’t, then it is anti-immigration. When you can tell me who is and who isn’t with 100% accuracy, then you get to chose the words we use here. Until then, I just see immigrants. I don’t know each individual status.
Once again, “latino” become synonymous with illegal immigration. And people wonder why those of feel like hispanics are being maligned?
Are people so forgetful of our American history and immigration? For a nation borne of immigrants, it is interesting how each century has some group to villify. Different year, SAME exact story.
Let us revisit the list of “parasites” that were going to destroy this country.
Native Americans (though they are the real first inhabitants), Chinese, Jews, Italians, Irish, and definately NOT the last, Latino. I am sure there are other groups. In the Johnson-Reed Act of 1924 which was the foundation for creating an illegal alien status, the entirety of eastern europe was included! Amazingly enough, Western Europe and thos super white scandanavian countries were left out. Geez, I wonder why………
Marinm,
Did you read the article I posted?
Marinm,
I need clarifation on your point please. We are saying the same thing?
Moon,
Can you help me out here. Didn’t Jesus minister to the poor and sick? On one hand I keep hearing the TEA party and conservative republicans blather on about this being a “Christian Nation”, borne of “Christian Principles” but why don’t they put their principals into action?
Elena,
Yup. I guess it can be said that we’re saying the same thing from different angles. I think we can agree that there are open jobs in this market that can’t be filled because people:
A. Don’t want them. “Due to technological advancements, Bluestone said manufacturing jobs have become much more technical and skilled labor than they’ve ever been. Yet the misperception is that such jobs are “dirty” and “physically challenging,” so many young people don’t pursue manufacturing careers anymore.”
B. Public school kids are not that bright and lazy. “Fillingham said it’s hard to fill these jobs because they require people who are good at math, good with their hands and willing to work on a factory floor.”
The jobs picture wouldn’t be so bleak if people who are qualified would be willing to take those jobs. They’re not. So, we should then turn our attention to why people aren’t willing to take these ‘good jobs’. If we can meet in the middle to figure that out we’ll have created more jobs than our current administration. 🙂
FWIW, I think it’s because kids now a days are lazy and have been brought up in a society that says “don’t go to work, here’s an EBT card and unemployment” Just play your XBOX and we’ll take care of you….
Closer to the topic, churches suing.
I don’t really have an issue with this. If they see lawyers as the best way to minister and serve the poor – so be it.
But, I don’t think that the people supporting the Church advocating for illegal aliens would support the church suing to stop same-sex marriage or same-sex adoption.
Churches should not get involved in debates or lawsuits regarding political issues, and those that do should lose their tax-exempt status. I chose and have stuck with my church for nearly a decade and a half because they are non-political. We have liberals, conservatives, independents, Republicans, and Democrats all of whom enjoy each others’ fellowship and company largely because we stay away from politics.
My church is actively involved in ministries that serve the poor, including the low-income immigrant community. No doubt that many of those immigrants are illegals. That’s not an issue for us because the ministries are aimed at alleviating suffering, largely among families and children. We’re not involved as a congregation advocating for or against anything related to illegal aliens. We have some in our congregation who are strongly opposed to illegal immigration and would support what Alabama did. Others are much more liberal and argue for the path to citizenship. However, we don’t let those issues divide us at the church and we focus on what we all support – ministries to help the poor and neglected without taking political stances.
Well, Thank God you’re here! Otherwise, we’d have to click a mouse button a few times to know what’s going on over there!
Now I have to assume you were paying attention to all that stuff in the Old Testament about obeying the law, yes?
slow,
huh? more words please.
Marinm,
You are mixing apples and oranges. No one is forced to be gay or get married so if some rabbi, reverend, or priest marries a gay couple who cares. The difference is being prosecuted for helping your fellow human being in need. THAT is what the Church is sueing over.
@Elena
But, overall you should have no issue with a church using lawyers to advocate against same-sex causes, right? I see this less as an apples and oranges comparison because I’m not looking at the topic. If we think it’s ok for a church to seek redress from the govt and use a lawyer to do so then why limit the scope of topics?
If they can deploy lawyers for one cause why not another?
Let’s say Alabama passes a law that says all entities providing healthcare must do so for same-sex partners. Religious organizations may balk at this. If it were to pass without an exemption for those organizations should they not be permitted to seek redress?
The sword here is double bladed. If you advocate for them being able to fight the law for the poor then they can’t then fight the law in other areas including against same-sex (rights).
Marinm,
How about we just stick to the real cases before us. Churches, Temples, etc have never been required to marry anyone of any faith. So how about we not talk about the hypothetical.
Here is the reality, religious organization help feed the poor, they pick up the slack where government can not fully provide. In what American principle does arresting people or putting them in jail for offering food ever existed. Nowhere. If the “state” creates a category for “aiding and abetting” unlawful immigrants a crime, and that inlcuded offering food etc, than the State is behaving like a bunch of thugs. Offering food and shelter to immigrants is what Churches do, no immigrants demand it, no parisioners HAVE to donate. Its called free will my friend, a VERY American principle.
It’s not hypothetical because it’s happening now but I’ll move on as I’ve made my point.
It’ll be interesting to see how the court rulings play out. My personal belief is that the law is a waste of time and will simply damage the economy of the state.
I personally believe that illegals that make themselves known to law enforcement should be deported. Those that don’t I’m not worried about. They should also not get any state or federal benefits.
That view doesn’t make me any friends on either side of the debate but I think it’s the most logical approach. I think it’s a more centrist approach.
@marinm
have been brought up in a society that says “don’t go to work, here’s an EBT card and unemployment” Just play your XBOX and we’ll take care of you… – but you need employment to qualify for unemployment.
A very stereotypical comment, with no basis in fact.
Pat,
You take the view that no fraud exists in our unemployment insurance program?
The administration would disagree with you.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/14/news/economy/obama_agencies_waste/
“The Department of Labor says it’s focusing on six states where fraud in unemployment benefits is particularly bad: Virginia, Indiana, Colorado, Washington, Louisiana, and Arizona. Improper payments of unemployment benefits have run as high as 43% of dollars distributed in Louisiana and Indiana.”
I’m sure those 43% of people are just misunderstood by the media and the government.
Or, maybe I’m wrong and they’re playing Playstation 3 and not the XBox.
Pat, did you catch the EBT rap video? Priceless. Too bad youtube pulled it.
@marinm
Marin, you of all people should refrain from saying ‘illegals.’ How about illegal immigrants?
The use of a adjective being used as a noun makes me clutch my throat and I am not even an English teacher.
@marinm
I expect there is lots of fraud with unemployment insurance. That seems like it would be ripe for the picking. I am not even sure how the employer pays in. I know many of them now fight paying on a person.
In what areas was fraud suspected in VA? Specifics please.
Interestingly when I hear conversations around the dinner table the word ‘illegal’ is used instead of ‘illegal immigrant’, irregular immigrant, undocumented immigrant or other PC combinations.
I think I’ll stick with the word illegal. To me it’s not much different from calling ‘persons that engage in activity that exceeds the posted speed limit’ – speeders.
Unemployment abuse is pretty bad. IIRC only employers pay unemployment insurance. Workers don’t pay into it. Interestingly, I was fired once for going to an unemployment office and fighting for a fired coworker to get unemployment. He was denied and I was fired. I was maybe 20? 21? Worked at Best Buy.
The real abuse is in disability. And what’s worse is that because so many people abuse it they make it very hard for those that need help to get it – quickly.
I don’t have the specifics that CNN used to draft their article. I assume that they got it straight from the Labor department if DoL was being quoted.
“Illegals” is just not standard English and it is derogatory. However, its your dinner table. Using standard English and not insulting people should not be considered PC.
Do employers pay all along on the insurance or do they only pay if they fire someone? Best buy has a bad employee track record from what I hear. My kid used to work at Circuit City. Same kind of deal at one time or another.
I expect disability abuse is probably rampant. It is difficult to get. Not so sure if it is difficult to keep though.
Marinm,
I just don’t get you. Your mom was an illegal immigrant wasn’t she or am I remembering this incorrectly?
Marinm,
There is no church legally bound to marry anyone so your hypothetical is irrelevant.
@Elena
Elena, yes. My mom was illegal. She even told me about how she ducked a helo with floodlight as she made her way through the desert.
Both my parents are now documented. Of note when my mom was issued a green card she was prego with my brother. To get her green card she had to leave the US. The closest border was Canada (via NY). Canada was scared to death she’d deliver while in Canada so they processed her paperwork as fast as could be to get her back in to the US.
No one wants our peoples.
@marin, why doesn’t that make you a kinder gentler person where the subject of immigration is involved? I know you consider yourself a proud American. If people work hard, obey the laws and do the best that they can, aren’t you somehow in their camp? I sure am. That is why I support the Dream Act. It isn’t like I am asking to send a gang member to NOVA.
I think I answered that above.
I don’t think it’s in our best interests to track down every person and try to deport everyone. Like the War on Drugs it’s simply bad policy and a waste of money, time and effort better put somewhere else.
I do support the idea that when an alien makes his/her presence known to law enforcement that the alien should be sent up for a deportation hearing.
I support the idea that an alien not be provided benefits from a federal level and leave up to the states the idea of providing state-level benefits.
I do not support the idea of taxpayer monies being used to pay for education of an alien at the college or vocational school. However, that’s the decision of the state. What Texas wants to do may not be what Virginia wishes to do.
I do not support the DREAM Act.
I think we should also overhaul how we process people for legal immigration into this country.
I have no issue with the US flexing it’s soverignty. If they want some people but not others – that’s ok with me. If we want doctors and not gardeners I’m ok with that. If we want cheap labor to compete with our cheap labor – so be it.
With the caveat that victims of crime that make their presence known to law enforcement will not have their illegal status used against them.
In my opinion bringing to justice the perpetrator of the crime against the illegal is of more importance than bringing the illegal before a judge.
It’s important that the federal government of the United States act forcefully to resist these liberal, extra-constitutional efforts by states to take the law into their own hands. I know that there are liberals inside and outside the Administration who hate to step up for conservative federalist principles, because they are afraid of offending their supporters on labor or environmental issues when the states or localities want to get out front of the feds on those matters. But governing demands a long view. Here, the correct thing to do is to assert federal supremacy and strike down these assaults on the Constitution by people who like to call themselves “conservative” for electioneering purposes, but who would tear the Republic and the Constitution to shreds for narrow political marketing gain. However, it is also important that the federal pols of both parties stop mincing about on this issue and engage in a robust overhaul of federal immigration policy to remove the aggravations that give political hacks motivation to scam the voters with this issue.
Can someone please tell me why there is an immigration system to begin with? I’ve seem to have lost the point to all of that. Based on what folks here say there doesn’t seem to be a need for one. However, maybe there is a valid reason for having a immigration process. Maybe it’s to prevent having to catch an prosecute the 190,000 criminal illegal immigrants that we find in our country each year. That would certainly make sense, but not everyone sees it that way I guess.
SA, I definitely think we need an immigration system and we need one that works. The current one isn’t working so well and it is backlogged.
I think the issue that you are having a problem with is those people who have not gone through the immigration system. Our problem is, what do you do with those people. That is where we cannot agree. I don’t think the place to start is rounding up children when their parents send them to school. Let’s start with criminals and get that handled.
Other reasons for the system are to prevent health risks, that the people have a means of support, have them learn enough English to communicate, and make them aware of our rules and laws. Any system can be overrun, as with email servers, but that doesn’t mean they are broken. If we changed the system to process all that wanted to enter from Latin America we would be overrun within 5 years, and the overall GDP of America would sink to that of Mexico. Just look at how many get here every year even though we are trying to prevent it. There has to be a limit, and I feel that illegal immigration has far exceeded any limit we would set even in a revamped system. In short, until we seal the border no change to the system is going to be beneficial to the US. We need a deterrent from attempting to cross the border, and codling those that do, criminal or not, isn’t going to do it. That may seem cruel at times, but we won’t survive as a nation if we keep welcoming those that make it with open arms. Just ask any native American Indian. However if you love to vacation in Latin America, then I guess all is well.
Another point I want to make is that the native American Indians were displaced by people from a more advanced civilization, whereas in the case of illegal immigration we are being displaced by people from a more backward civilization. The end result is not going to benefit our country in any way shape or form. It’s taken us several generations to raise the average education level of the people in this country, and now we are being forced to start all over again. That isn’t progress in my book.
Why do you feel you are being displaced, SA?
I actually don’t see this wave of immigrants any differently than I do all the others who have come over and found their niche in society. How do these differ from the wave of Irish, the Italians, the Poles, the Jews? Most everyone came over poor and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps.
The big difference is that they all had to fend for themselves. There weren’t any tax payer funded support programs. It was do or die. They also went through health screenings, and background checks as best could be done. They were also documented as to their origins, etc. As far as being displaced goes. Let’s put it this way, it was getting so bad here at one point where I honestly started to think seriously of moving before the value of my home became relatively worthless due to what the community was turning into. That is forced displacement if ever there was.