From The Washington Post:
“It’s not that 99 percent of Americans want a revolution,” Ezra Klein wrote Tuesday. “It’s that 99 percent of Americans sense that the fundamental bargain of our economy — work hard, play by the rules, get ahead — has been broken, and they want to see it restored.”
Almost 15 days later, the submissions are appearing at a more rapid pace. At the same time, thousands of people can now protest in their home cities, as Occupy Wall Street has spread nationwide.
Voicing opposition to everything from corporate greed and bank foreclosures to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and unemployment, the Web site Occupy Together estimates there are now “Occupy” movements in 291 cities.
As the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations move across America, I am becoming more and more convinced that this is a unique movement and isn’t just your usual professional demonstrator and anarchists. Yes, some of them are there. They have to be somewhere. However, more and more people in that sea of folks seem to be Americans who are just frustrated by foreclosures, joblessness, political rhetoric that misses the point, and general malaise concerning their fate in their America.
It is in the interest of the tea parties, the GOP and some Democrats to dismiss these people as kooks, commies, pinkos, anarchists, and professional agitators (that’s what they used to call them back in the day). Why? Because Occupy Wall Street (OWS) could end up being a huge groundswell of EveryAmerican who lacks the face of any political party and who just wants to put a stop to the absurdities and obstructionism going on in this country. Obviously the tea parties want to be the new kid on the block, but they aren’t really. They are just another branch of very conservative Republicanism, despite protests to the contrary.
Obama gets it and for that, he will be further vilified. He may get some mud on him over it but in the long run, those propping up the 1% will be the losers. As various conservative media lambasted the president for not demonizing the protesters, conservative fear began to crystalize. The rules of the game are changing.
Trying to brand these demonstrators all as the great unwashed isn’t going to fly. We can’t blame it all on unions and on college kids. They are out there but they aren’t the whole enchilada. They have their grouses for sure. But so do people who have been gouged by the financial industry, the mortgage industry, immigration policy, and a host of other standards that kick the 99% rather than help them up. Basically, this group represents Americans who played by the rules only to get thrown under the bus and to find out the rules have changed and the goal posts have been moved.
I believe I have seen some boomers out there in the crowd also. Don’t expect this movement to fizzle out. Expect it to gather steam, sophistication and direction. Tea party, sleep with one eye open for sure. “Plurality is our strength,” is a very strong statement. Some of that lack of focus seems a little more intimidating now when viewed through the eyes of plurality.
A friend of mine took a 30 percent (!!!!) pay cut within the last two years in order to be able to keep his job. In the meantime, the president and CEO of his company (one of the companies in the link) rewarded himself generously with performance bonuses and stock options–essentially raiding salaries and 401K’s for his million-plus compensation package. Do I think my friend has a grievance? Hell, yeah!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/06/17/CapitalBusiness/Graphics/ceocomp.pdf
Both sides have ALWAYS taken huge sums of money from corporations when campaigning. Obama is right up there with them all, so stop pointing the finger at only the GOP. I agree that there should be a separation of business and government. Not that government shouldn’t have some say in how business is conducted, but in no way should business be able to buy government favors and politicians. However, even if you kept business out of the campaign funding you still have the likes of billionaires with very biased views such as George Soros who can set a candidate up with overwhelming funds. Perhaps every presidential candidate should have to draw equal amounts from a collective nation wide campaign fund, and not be allowed to use other money, or be allowed free support. The playing field would then be FAIR since that is all anybody seems to care about any more! Just ask one of those 99%’rs.
Emma, I must agree as I also worked for a corporation that went through ‘downsizing’ for years in the late 80’s, and as we were reading the list in one hand of those being let go in the other hand we were reading the list of CEO bonuses and compensations. The corporation eventually failed, but the CEO’s kept being rewarded during the entire process while groups of workers were being let go every other week. That, I must admit, would make me take to the streets in protest if that is standard procedure throughout this country.
The movement grows rapidly and encompasses more and more Americans. This may be the result of the Arab spring that began in the Middle East, moved across Europe and now across the pond. Ezra Klein is right. People who work hard and play by the rules are getting screwed.
SA–This is the only mention I made of political parties:
It is in the interest of the tea parties, the GOP and some Democrats to dismiss these people as kooks, commies, pinkos, anarchists, and professional agitators (that’s what they used to call them back in the day).
I see both parties mentioned.
I don’t think this movement is about campaign finance specifically, although the obscene amounts of money spent on elections surely is part of the national corruption.
You might want to reread what I said.
Emma, I would be furious if that happened to me.
I laugh. I laugh because I hear the platitudes being written here, spoken by our President and the Democrat party, and broadcasted by the MSM regarding this “movement”, and compare them to the vilification of the TEA party by these very same actors, as a racist, bigotted, prone-to-violence right-wing mob. Although many claims of TEA Party racist remarks have been made, none have been substantiated. Yet I, me, Steve Thomas, have seen the signs being held high by the Wall Street protesters, and have read and heard statements given to the press by same, that are anti-semitic, threaten violence if their demands are not met (images of financial figures with knives stuck in their heads, and nooses around their necks), and are clearly and decidedly big government, anti-capitalist. To add insult to injury, our President validated these protests yesterday.
These “99%-ers” don’t represent 99% of Americans. While it may have started out as a spontaneous grass-roots demonstration (which is HIGHLY suspect, IMHO), we now see the hard-left and anarchist organizations moving to the front. If past demonstations, such as those at the WHO and IMF conferences are any indication, this is going to get ugly. We already see reports of violence in “clashes” with lawful authorities. Comparing this to TEA party demonstations, where permits were secured, no reports of violence, peaceful, non-disruptive demonstrations were conducted, and yet the organizations involved were demonized, mocked, and dismissed, the lauding of this “movement” to me is laughable. Really, I have to laugh, when I see our so-called leaders casting their lot with what is indeed a mob.
Wake up people. The occupy wall street demonstrations are a sign of bad things to come. Choose carefully with whom you throw in. If things continue to devolve, their very well may be a reckoning one day, and when the rain comes, it falls on all of us: left, right, and those in the middle.
I grant you that some people in these demonstrations have valid complaints. And they are showing up with the liberal/socialist protesters because THEY are liberal. But the majority of these protesters or at least those that make it on TV and the organizers are the same protesters seen at any other liberal protest. And these protest ARE organized by the communist party and the unions. And if the unions are involved, the Democratic party is entangle with it in the background. These are not spontaneous “uprisings” like the Tea Party was.
http://occupywallst.org/
Will they last? Who knows? Personally, I don’t think so. They are externally funded without grass roots support in their communities. I don’t see them coming together as the TP did to get involved with the actual nitty gritty of politics. Well, except for the Democratic party community activists continuing business as usual.
Some of their supporters
http://occupywallst.org/article/occupywallstreet-union-march-foley-square-wall-str/
I’m confused because they are complaining on the site about cuts in GOVERNMENT spending, but are protesting at Wall Street.
Comments at Occupy Wall Street are great.
http://occupywallst.org/article/site-has-nothing-do-us/#comments
I love this excerpt from one of the stranger ones:
“The only logical system that works is as simple as to work as little as possible so that we can enjoy the world. This means to cooperate (not compete) to produce in the most efficient way and the best quality only the things that we need with a lot of food armed with, love, full employment and the latest technologies including robots. We can easily use robots to do most of our work so that we have time to enjoy our lives
This means to be extremely rich and happy on a peaceful and healthy earth where pain, fear and suffering are things of the past; together we can do it now. We have all the intelligence, resources and power needed to do this; our mother earth is abundantly rich; we only lack the necessary wisdom & the political will.”
The entire “anti-corporation” movement is idiotic.
http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2011/10/the-absurdity-of-the-anti-corporation-movement.html
“End Capitalism NOW!”, indeed. And replace it with……….?
Are the protesters supported by Democrats and their allies?
From Instapundit:
CITY AUTHORITIES PLAYING FAVORITES ON PROTESTS: “The Hub’s hands-off approach to unpermitted Occupy Boston protests has Tea Partiers up in arms and has even rankled a top civil libertarian who said all groups should be subject to the same rules — regardless of the cause. . . . Organizers of the Occupy Boston tent city in Dewey Square have never sought nor received any permits from the state, the city or the Rose Kennedy Greenway Conservancy, which controls the property.”
Hmmmm…..wonder how the city would treat Tea Party protesters that did this…oh. Wait…The TP would have gone through the proper procedures…..
and there’s this:
http://pajamasmedia.com/spengler/2011/10/06/wall-street-protesters-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-they/
The LA protest paid people to protest and bussed union members in to fill the crowd, to manufacture an impression of a ground swell. And even then, only hundreds showed up.
Time to kill the wealthy
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/06/time-to-kill-the-wealthy-says-fan-of-occupy-wall-street/
The same people that decried “right wing hate” or “crosshairs” find nothing wrong with this. Actual threats that reflect the rhetoric and demonizaton of the “rich” don’t seem to matter if it comes from the left.
Paid protesters
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/06/organizer-admits-to-paying-occupy-dc-protesters-video/
And here’s another difference between the TP and the “occupiers” Hmmm what a great term to describe them. And “occupier” is an invading army that hold YOUR territory for THEIR benefit. http://ttpdaily.com/occupy-tucson-we-are-tucson/
http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/04/hooray-for-fear-of-extremism-a
Remember when angry public demonstrations amounted to “the politics of the jackboot,” a dire stormcloud of brownshirtery in which “an angry minority” of white people was “engaging in intimidation backed by the threat of violence”? Well, now that the protesters in question are more anti-capitalist than anti-government spending, such threats are a good thing.
I wonder what Mayor Bloomberg would do if the Tea Party did this to Wall Street?
Which tea party, Cargo? I thought there was not one tea party? You are doing double speak again.
And yes, I knew that I was going into moderation for the above. But the links were necessary.
@Cargo, why not just do 2-3 posts if you have links? Why is it ok for you not to have to go to the trouble but ok for me to have to go in behind the scenes to let you out?
@Steve, I don’t necessarily think the movement was started by John Q Public at all. I don’t think I said WHO started it. I think it will end up capturing the general public though.
Why must it compare to anything? Why can’t it be its own entity?
My point remains. There are enough dissatisfied Americans to take to the streets. Many have and many will continue to do so. To dismiss all these people as professional agitators and anarchists is to do so at your own peril.
Blaming the president for supporting them is disingenuous. That isn’t really what he said. I think he is wise to let these protests mature for the moment.
The tea party doesn’t own protest and certainly doesn’t own counter culture.
The 99%-ers are speaking of their income bracket, not the portion of Americans they represent. I think most people are tired of the blanket of protectionism given to 1% of the wealthiest while those same protector try to tear apart unions, pensions, and refuse to compromise towards jobs bills that would help put Americans back to work.
Ha ha. I sense fear from the rabid right. The MSM hasn’t been able to tweak out all the messages of OWS, but the right already has categorized the protesters as hard-left and anarchists.( Same old Nixon tactics.) The irony of the right labeling and smearing a nascent movement when they hollered that the Tea Party was grassroots America standing up against a bloated government is delicious. Bloat in government = bad. Bloat in private business = good. Ha ha. Nah. No ideology involved. Nah. None.
This is fun to watch and I hope this movement progresses to the point where politicians are forced to worry about the next election. Right now they probably haven’t figured out to which group, cause, voting element to pander.
I am enjoying watching the reaction also. I too sense fear. Maybe all the little people who don’t like being stepped on, having their pensions threatened and their unions rights taken away will rise up in this crowd. I suspect there are also a few folks who have lost their jobs, homes, health care, cars, and what little unemployment insurance they get might soon be joining in the ranks.
Nixon and Johnson tactics. Johnson got ousted over his stance.
Actually, I haven’t seen or heard that much racist. If people really want to see what this is all about, I suggest looking past the people with pink or purple hair. The fringe aren’t really the danger. They will grow weary and return to the dorm. The professionals will move on when a money event happens. Those who will stay might really just end up being the people who actually vote.
Three things the Tea people have that OWS doesn’t:
1.) Jobs
2.) Soap and water
3.) A point
and in doing so, you prove my point.
@Cato the Elder
Keep telling yourself that.
Why are you comparing this group to the tea party?
I think many points are being offered and they are just getting started. What if all the unbathed go home?
@Moon-howler
“My point remains. There are enough dissatisfied Americans to take to the streets. Many have and many will continue to do so. To dismiss all these people as professional agitators and anarchists is to do so at your own peril. ”
Substitute “racists and nazis” for “agitators and anarchists” in your statement, and it could have been authored by any conservative over the last few years, regarding the TEA Party, and they would have been mocked by the left.
While I am on a self-imposed hiatus from the blog fray, I thought this important enough to break my fast. Now I shall now resume my fast.
@Moon-howler
I apologize. I was trying to keep it all together. Won’t happen again.
As for the Tea Party….what double speak? There is one Tea Party MOVEMENT. There are MANY Tea Party groups. So, ANY TP chapter or chapters.
“while those same protector try to tear apart unions, pensions, and refuse to compromise towards jobs bills that would help put Americans back to work.”
Refuse to compromise? Ummmm, The HOUSE has already stated they are ready to compromise. The Republicans in the Senate requested an vote on Obama’s bill AS IS.
Sooooo….are you talking about the Democrats? Because Democrats have also cut state funds and pensions, and are refusing to vote on Obama’s bill.
Or is your idea of compromise to just do what Obama or the Democrats want?
What smearing and categorization? THE OWS has STATED that they are anarchists and communists. THEY are waving signs stating such. THEY are the ones with speeches calling for revolution, violence, glorifying cop killers, describing all of America throughout history as fascist, demanding to tear down the system, ending capitalism, and blaming it on Jews. I’ve heard it. THEIR words.
So, if this turns into a true political movement that supports the Democrats or leans toward the Democrats…more power to them. I don’t have a problem with them “occupying” anything. Though, if I were them, I would have occupied Wall Street during a warmer season……
Oh…and Nixon was right, as history showed. SDS, Weather Underground, Communist infiltration of the Hippy movement. All happened. I’ve even talked with people that were in the movement that left it when the Weather Underground was infiltrated and taken over by the radical left that advocated violence.
@Steve Thomas
We have cookies and hot chocolate. Please stay.
I think you make a valid point and pretty much reinforce mine. Tea Party did have some professionals in there for sure, but that isn’t who came when the bugle sounded.
I am not going out on a limb and say I know I am right. However, I have lived through a few decades where street protest was not just something to do on a Sat. afternoon.
I just don’t think I am ready to dismiss all these people as the great unwashed. I need to sit back and study what is going on. The media has not been helpfull–not MSM or NMSM.
Cargo, oh BS. Do you really think the 60s protests were all weatherman and SDS? They might have told you that ….and I have a bridge for sale. Yes, there were professional radicals in the 60s. However, most of the people out there were plain old college students who wanted to end the war.
Don’t believe everything some Joe Schmoe tells you.
What point exactly did the TEA party have? they were protesting Taxed Enough Already when no freakin’ taxes had been raised. That was just pure ridiculousness! They were freaking out over insurance reform, WHY????!!!!!!!! Clearly, with health care costs exponentially increasing, it is COMMMON SENSE to find new solutions. The borderline hysteria was over a man named Barak Obama becoming president.
Republicans are sore loser in my opinion. The treatment Bill Clinton recieved was disgusting, more tax payer money was wasted on Ken Starr then should have EVER been approved. But I digress. The visceral hatred for Obama is not mentally healthy in my opinion. When have you EVER heard an elected leader predicting they will ensure that a president will only serve one term? I never have until Mitch McConnel.
The difference is that there is not a pretend crisis over the economy like there was over the very fact that Obama was now President. Here, you have a real crisis, people can’t get good paying jobs to support a middle class income and pay bills while uber rich people are talking multi million dollar bonus’s. These are not job creators.
We have NOT recovered from the originail mess that got us here.
I vividly recall John McCain being villified for arguing against the Bush tax cuts the secone time around, and that was when the economy was doing well. He said we need to pay for the tax cuts and what happened to him, he was excoriated for daring to bring up the fiscal prudence of tax cuts.
Cargosquid, when you make that claim about 60s leftist organizations being infiltrated, don’t forget paid informants and paid agitators planted by various police departments or the opposition. I never rule out infiltrators in any politically motivated organization.
I knew many 60s protestors and only a couple SDS members.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/oct/3/picket-occupy-wall-street-protesters-post-manifest/
Here’s some Occupy demands. I applaud some of them. But expecting Congress to make these changes without getting conservatives into Congress is a pipe dream. They are asking the same politicians that created the mess to fix it. Won’t happen.
The second list is just funny. I LOL’d.
Actually I support all those demands on a surface level. I guess that makes me a commie, pinko, socialist bastard of the great unwashed. Oh well. Life goes on.
@Cargosquid
I’ve even talked with people that were in the movement that left it when the Weather Underground was infiltrated and taken over by the radical left that advocated violence.
What did they leave? Vegetarianism? Love beads? Sit-ins? Communes? Study abroad? College? That was one amorphous movement as well.
Do you know anyone who has left the Tea Party because of the racist signs, townhall interruptions, etc.?
@Censored bybvbl
“Do you know anyone who has left the Tea Party because of the racist signs”
Produce the proof.
@Censored bybvbl
Here’s my proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iurg7A6MKH0
Where’s yours?
@Steve
That is proof that some Americans are rude and don’t respect their elders, nothing else.
1. We didn’t hear the beginning of the argument.
2. This guy would be nasty to anyone.
3. Why is one person representative of an entire movement.
I would suggest this kid needs a spanking and might very well be nuts.
No ‘proof credit’ there. What are you trying to prove?
@Cargo,
Any time you have 3 or more links just put them in separate posts. That should work.
I didn’t name those who wouldn’t compromise, did I? I think you know that the jobs bill has stalled. There is an area where no compromise exists. We can save that for another day.
I haven’t heard any official spokesperson speak for OWS. I think it is to your advantage to paint everyone out there as a scofflaw and anarchist.
And history has not proven Nixon right. Everyone knew at the time who all was in those radical groups…shutting across the country ‘agitating.’ However,, to really capture the mood of a nation, you have to look at the college kids who were out there who really thought the radical groups were irrelevant. The people who were protesting didn’t want to get drafted to go fight in some jungle for a country whose own young people were riding around the streets of Saigon on moped and clubbing at night. The girls were a little more emotional. They didn’t want their men dead and they didnt like the nightly show of women and little children being napalmed (collatoral damage of course.) But mostly, the males didn’t want to get drafted and the women didnt want their men to go to war.
Don’t let anyone tell you any different.
The ‘establishment’ tried doing the same thing with the black groups. They said MLK was a philandering communist and identified everyone with SNCC, CORE, the black panthers etc. It was all to discredit the entire movement, much of which was comprised of little old ladies from the church.
The TEA Party was protesting the UPCOMING taxes and the TRILLION dollar deficits caused by Pelosi and Reid and exacerbated by Obama.
They were protesting a “health reform bill” that was rammed through without discussion, using bribery and tricks. They were protesting arrogant politicians that stated they had no need to know what was in it, did not know what was in it, and believed that “we have to pass it to know what’s in it.”
They were protesting a bill that demonstrably does not do what Obama professed it would do and costs more than was stated. The gov’t LIED about the costs. And now they are backtracking on the stated “savings.”
They were protesting a bill that unconstitutionally mandates purchases from a thrid party that sets a legal precedent that says the gov’t can force you to buy anything they DEEM important.
They were protesting the dishonesty and arrogance behind the entire process.
They were protesting Obama because they listened to him and took him at his word. They listened to what he said and did not insult him by assuming that he did not mean what he said about fundamentally transforming America.
I agree that too much money and time was wasted on Clinton. I also believe that he is a lying opportunist that perjured himself. And that he is corrupt. But the Congressional investigations were idiotic.
McConnell stated that his goal was to make sure that Obama served one term. I don’t remember a representative stating that either, but, there’s nothing wrong with it. He’s reflecting the goals of his constituents. Conservatives believe that Obama’s policies and politics are incredibly dangerous for the health of America. And so far, we been proven right.
What pretend crisis? Its the same crisis. The recession started just before Obama took office. The down slide actually started in 2007. Right after the Congressional elections. This group, as I stated above, is filled with some people that are actually protesting the crisis caused by Congress and are upset that jobs are gone while companies give out bonuses. Guess what? If that company is now making a profit then those bosses did their job. That’s how business works. Their demands, though, to repeat some of the Tea Party concerns, concerning crony capitalism and the results of repealing Glass-Steagall. It just that those truly concerned people are associating with and being used by the left to advance THEIR agenda. It is incontrovertible that the communists and socialists and unions organized these events. It is incontrovertible that these events are being run by radicals and those radicals are allowing their more extreme elements to be the face of their movement.
The organizers come from the Working Families Party, affiliated with the SEIU, ACORN, and the New Party. All of this is being organized by the left and the Democrat party.
That’s why Pelosi is describing this as a “spontaneous”, uplifting movement “with a message for the establishment”that is “focused.” You know, instead of describing them automatically as astroturfed and implied that they were violent.
Ya know…I don’t remember ANY Tea Party members being arrested vs the protesters on the left and more specifically the Occupy movement.
Here’s another list of demands of the Occupy people and below that is the announcement to Occupy.
http://billayers.wordpress.com/
You might recognize the name…..HE’s an unapologetic terrorist that infiltrated the hippy movement too, to kill people.
@Moon-howler
That the TEA party is constantly branded as racist, yet no one can produce any documentary evidence, except heresay. Yet a simple google search produces video of an OWS protester uttering anti-semitic remarks. That’s my point. My broader point is these ain’t “middle” or “common” ground people. I’ve read the demands at the ows.org website. Pure marxist pablum.
And the biggest point of all: We see in stark contrast the ways the left and right go about expressing their interests. I do believe that this election will have repercussions for this country that rival that of 1860, and we all know what that eventually led to.
Now, really, I must leave this and other discussions/debates for a time. I’ve much to do, and little time to do it in.
@Cargosquid
“Ya know…I don’t remember ANY Tea Party members being arrested vs the protesters on the left and more specifically the Occupy movement.”
over 350 TEA Party rallies, not a single arrest.
to date, 5700 arrests at OWS rallies.
Isn’t this nice? Occupy DC had a terrorist supporting traitor talking to them on the stage.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/10/marxist-occupy-dc-protesters-hold-anti-capitalist-rally-at-chamber-of-commerce-video/
Code Pink is SUCH a community minded, patriotic group. They’re just like the Tea Party.
Just ask’em!
@Steve Thomas
I don’t know why you all want to compare apples to oranges.
I saw some questionable things om tea party that were chalked off by Wolverine and others to be people who were fringe and not really members. Ok. That happens. So what? Regardless of what evidence has been presented, there have been reasons given and excuses made. I don’t really operate that way. I just listen to people I know and that is all I need.
But again, why the insistence on comparing this nascent movement with the tea parties who also dont have a head? I just want to sit back and watch. There has been a temendous amount of energy spent on trying to paint these folks with a broad brush and to offer up tea party comparisons.
For all I know, they are just a bunch of dirt bags. On the other hand, perhaps they aren’t. Then it will get really interesting.
@Cato the Elder
Three things OWS people have that Tea people don’t:
1. Their own teeth
2. An education
3. A significant other who’s not also a cousin
ACORN is back.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/oct/acorn-behind-occupy-wall-street-protest
“Among the goals is to get major banks to stop preying on the poor and people of color, according to the organizer of a Boston offshoot of an Occupy Wall Street rally. The event, promoted as Take Back Boston, was organized by dozens of local community groups that claim big banks have a pattern of pushing “bad loans on people of color and the poor.” As a result of the “predatory lending,” foreclosures have skyrocketed in urban communities, the organizers say.”
Hmmmm….first ACORN gets the gov’t to pressure the banks to make bad loans in impoverished neighborhood or face penalties, protests, and lawsuits. “Redlining” was racist, don’t you know? It couldn’t have been because many poor black neighborhoods are POOR.
Now the banks are bad because those impoverished people can’t pay those loans.
Who didn’t see this coming?
Pick one group and you all settle on it. You can’t demonize every leftist group in the country.
Does it really matter who organizes it if the rank and file America joins in?
Why not sit back and watch rather than expending so much energy telling each other that this bad element or that bad element is involved.
I have heard so much mumbo jumbo on TV and from the right wing, I am getting highly amused at it all. Oh don’t leave out moveon.org. That is the worst!! You all never mention that organization. I guess it is easier to single out ACORN who is pretty unemployered now it has no more money. Michael Moore has more money than God.
@Morris Davis
I wouldn’t bet too much on point number one, pal. Have you seen some of these dudes?
http://moonbattery.com/Zuccotti-Park.jpg
@Steve Thomas
My question – ” Do you know anyone who has left the Tea Party because of the racist signs, townhall interruptions, etc.?” – was directed to Cargo who said that some of his friends had left the “movement” (60s) because of radical elements entering it. I was wondering if he’d be willing to leave the TP movement because of some of the signs (which you must think were imaginary).
I find this movement interesting because so far no one has been able to define or control it. The Repub operatives are scrambling desperately to smear it.
I think Cargo has pretty much laid out the arguments ~and links :-)~ for most of what I wanted to say, but let me go a step further with just my personal analysis.
For the most part, this “protest” is being driven by anarchists, communists, and anti-capitalist. There should be no arguement there, as the website, the speeches, and the talking heads of the OWS have proclaimed so much themselves. You look at their demands and any reasonable person with common sense can see that they are structured to tear down the world economy and the US. Come on, forgive all debt? Really? Sure if you want every business, government, and entity to collapse in a day, do it! It sure sounds good and gets those who have been hurting to come to your side, but it’s nonsense and to enterain anything other shows how out of touch with reality you really are.
That said, what I see happening is that these professional protesters have been able to start bringing the normal citizens to their side. Not because what they are saying is right, or because they agree, but because the common citizen is angry. They are pissed they are out of work, that they can’t find a job regardless of their qualifications, that their familes are suffering with no end in sight, and that they simply can’t provide for themselves. They are angry and they need an outlet and OWS is providing them that outlet. Again, I don’t believe these people actually believe in this “movement”, it’s just giving them a voice.
I mean look at it, the underlying basis of this “movement” is that Corporations are evil and that they are the cause for all of the country’s (and world’s) ills. That is just naive, hypocritical, and dangerous. In today’s society, and it’s ever increasing lack of self reliance, we would not be able to clothe ourselves, provide for our familes, travel, put food on our tables, or a roof over our heads without those “evil corporations”. If this movement got exactly what they wanted and “evil corporations” just went away, millions of people who are ill equipped to deal with a world in which they are forced to provide for themselves, would die. The mass chaos would provide even further distruction and mayhem as the “survival of the fittest” would prevail, then we would REALLY see the 99% propping up 1% that were able to rise to the top by force, coersion, and violence. Add to that, the hypocrisy of protesting those that provide the very things that make your life luxurious, by any standard, is just “silly” and pretty much tells me all I need to know about this “movement”.
Well, it’s not about taking down “corporations” persay, it’s about the fact that corporations are too cozy and influential on government. On this point, we agree, but we will disagree on the true fault. Who is really responsible for this corporate government corruption: the corporations or the politicians that allow themselves to be swayed? When the government started to allow lobbyists to hold influence and interject itself into business and matters in which it has no legitimate right, the doors of corruption were opened. If the game to play is to pressure, persuade, and buy off willing, compliant politicians, then how can we fault corporations for participating? The officials and the fed are the ones that allowed themselves to be corrupted, not the corporations who are just looking out for their interests. If your competitor is playing that game, but you aren’t, you will fail. If one company is granted preferential tax treatments because members of congress are allowing themselves to be bought, then you have to also jump on that bandwagon as a matter of survival.
OWS protesters blaming corporations for the issues of today is akin to blaming the rain for a leaking roof. You are targeting the effect, not the cause. The answer is to get the government the hell out of business. It’s time to end all government subsidies and allow business to fail or succeed on the merits of the services/products that they provide, not the amount of influence or kick backs they get from government. When the government starts allowing subsidies, preferential tax treatments, or the passage of laws targeting/benefitting specific segments of business, they are picking winners and losers. When those things happen, corruption prevails, and we get what we have today. However, if government had no arm into these areas, if they were out of the private sector, there would be no risk of corruption, no chance of corporate influence on policy, yet it is the corporations that are to blame? Level the playing field and get the government out of the private enterprise and the true winners/losers will be chosen by the people. Corporations will no longer need to play the game of garnishing favorable treatment by the government, but will expected to succeed based upon the merits of the value of the services they provide.
There are some in OWS that are angry and they have every right to be. However, they need to stop trying to blame and prevent the rain and just fix their leaky roof. Quit treating the symptoms and start going after the cancer. The cancer is not corporations, the cancer is an over-reaching, out of control government that has allowed itself to be corrupted. In it’s quest for power, the fed has overstepped their bounds and meddled in the affairs of private enterprise. Basically turning to mud everything it’s touched, then blames those that actually produce for the results of their federal policies. It wasn’t Barney Frank requiring banks to make loans to those ill-prepared and unable to repay them that collapsed the housing market, it was the greedy banks. It’s not the massive, expensive business regulations by executive fiat that destroyed jobs by causing mass uncertainity, it’s that those “greedy corporations” don’t want to hire. It’s not the moratorium on oil drilling propping up of a blundering, failing alternative energy industry that made our gas, food, and product prices rise, it’s the greedy oil companies that just want to make a profit. It’s not the massive, extreme, out of control government spending on borrowed money that is responsible for suffocating, job killing deficit spending and mountainous debt, it’s that those greedy “rich 1%” aren’t paying their “fair share” (even tho they pay 38% of all federal taxes, with the top 10% carrying 70%) of the tax burden. Starting to notice a trend here?
Again, time to stop blaming the weather and fix our roofs. OWS has a right to protest and I will stand by their right to do so, but I will also uphold my right to call them out for trying to destroy the very fabric of what makes this nation great. This is, in the simplist term, an ignorant, socialistic, anti-capitalist movement that is intent on playing on the fears of the people by convincing them that the very government that caused their pain, is the method of reliving that pain. By concentrating on the symptoms, they seek to steer people away from the disease. However, I think that the majority of the citizenship has already figured out how to see thru the smoke and mirrors that the OWS crowd are deploying.
And the vilification continues, based on what people think rather than what they know.
Shoot, I saw that list and thought it was spot on. No one I know thinks corporations are evil. I sure don’t. I just don’t think they are people.
I would say it is probably safe to trust neither govt or corporations, since both have everything to gain if you so much as blink.
Regardless of how evil govt. is, I sure am glad when I fly that the airlines are held to certain govt regulations. I am glad that my food is held to a standard and the meat is inspected. I don’t think there are many people out there who want to do away with prisons and fire departments.
@Censored bybvbl
I missed your question.
If a Tea Party group was bigoted, as a group, or as a culture, I would not be in that group. If I saw such signs at a rally, I would confront that person and get other TP people to confront them and also set things up to point out that the bigot does not speak for me. If the TP movement was advocating violence as a solution, I would not be in it either.
I brought up the infiltration of the groups in the 60’s because you mentioned Nixon mentioning it and you laughed it off. History shows that Nixon was right. The left and the communists did infiltrate and set the agenda for the political movements back then.
I haven’t brought up MOVEON.org purely as an oversight. They are coordinating a lot of this. Furthermore, ACORN is still around and getting gov’t money. They re-organized under different names.
The point of all this is an attempt to identify the people involved. You asked who these people were. I answered. Comparisons are being made to the TP because that is the only other popular political movement around now. And the media is attempting to describe this as the left’s answer to the TP. So, we are comparing and contrasting.
Are there spontaneous members in the group? Yes. Is all of it professional agitators? No. Are there people with valid complaints? yes. Is this a coordinated effort to advance the leftists’ attempt to demonize business and create and “enemy” for the public to rally against? Yes. Is it the correct enemy? Answer hazy. Should they be just as angry at the Congress and more specifically the Democrats, that set up the crisis with their laws and regulations and interference? Yes.
But they won’t. Because the Democrats are using this to push business interests to the GOP. Then use that as a target later. The balancing act is for the Dems to continue to get their millions from the financial sector while blaming them for all the evils of the world.
Oh, and the overstatement of comments continues.
Was there anywhere, anywhere at all, where I said that all regulation should be done away with? If you can find, I will buy you dinner.
Fact is, I didn’t. Never claimed it, never said it, never implied it. The government, our government, is there to protect our freedoms. To ensure that the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (property) remain and are not impeded by other men. In this, there is a certain amount of regulation required.
Safety standards for airlines are required. A measure of worthiness for flight must be maintained to ensure that the vehicle is safe for those that purchase the service and are unqualified to evaluate that safety for themselves. What is not required is a process of “random” stops, intrusive x-ray scans, and searches of a person without due process prior to accepting that service.
To ensure food safety, assurance that inspection processes, evaluations of cleaniness, and absense of disease should be enacted. However, the outlawing of salt, the mandate that school children are only allowed one cup of corn, beans, potatoes, etc because the government thinks that they should experience a diversity of vegetables. and the provision for a nanny state to determine a person’s diet is not.
With regards to health care, some regulation is required to ensure that those charged with provision of our health care take minimum steps to maintain and keep the privacy of those who pay for their services. Regulations to ensure that medical records are kept private and transferred securely for required purposes is needed, but mandating that what kind of care a person can and cannot recieved, forcing the confiscation of one man’s property to provide for another, and the mandating of what services a person can/cannot buy are not. Likewise, a standard for sterlization of equipment, levels of cleaniness, and assurance that the people performing medical procedures are properly trained and able to do is expected, but manadating the price for which a person can charge for that service is not.
Ensuring minimum safety standards for a work place to ensure that workers are not placed in harms way unnecessarily are fine, but pushing regulation rules on a premise of air quaility that has been proven, and stated by the agency, to have negilible impact on said air quaility, but comes at a price of billions of dollars, to the point where entire industry sectors will be shut down is not.
Moon, these are things I know. Congress requiring banks to make loans to people that were unable to pay were the cause of the housing bubble, not the fact that banks decided to try and bundle those loans, mandated by congress, and try to make a financial vehicle out of them. Our deficit spending and debt are not because the fed does not tax enough, but because it spends too much. These are not shining beacons of revelation, they are common sense.
So make any snarky comments you like about “what people think, rather than what they know”, the statements I made above are true. The essential law of our land and the foundation of our government, the constitution, laid out in very plain, simple, easy to understand terms what our federal government was allowed to do. There are 17 enumerated powers that are defined to the fed, no more, no less. If anything does not fall within those specific powers, the government has no legitimate authority to it. This is not “thought”, it is fact. However, we’ve allowed those powers to expand via illogical translations of the interstate clause and “general welfare”. We find ourselves in the position we are because we’ve allowed the government to grow beyond our control, not because we haven’t let government do enough.
Again, every time a top down government management strategy has been tried, it has failed. This is not “thought”, it is fact. History shows it without exception. Central bureaucracies do not work, which is why our founders were so brilliant to devise the system of government that we have. They left the real power to the states, and by effect, to the people. They understood that a central government was necessary in basic capacities, but prone to power expansion and tyranny if left unchecked. Everything I stated in my analysis about OWS is based on those principals, not just some random, emotional process.
@Rednex
Well said.
@Cargosquid
Cargo, I notice you conveniently did not ask if those protesting should have any beef with the GOP. How CON-VEEENient.
@Red–I am the queen of snark. Don’t take it personally. I believe I was making a general statement.
@Red, I doubt very seriously if you KNOW. M any people would disagree with some or all of those things. I seriously disagree with you about your assessment of what caused the housing bubble. That was a perfect storm with multiple causes.
Rednex says: “Congress requiring banks to make loans to people that were unable to pay were the cause of the housing bubble, not the fact that banks decided to try and bundle those loans, mandated by congress, and try to make a financial vehicle out of them. … These are not shining beacons of revelation, they are common sense.”
Common myth of the neo-cons who find it advantageous to blame the those at the bottom who mainly lost it all rather than those at the top who profitted hugely … or as you call it, “common sense.” I know you guys hate to let things like history or facts get in the way of a good rant, but your claim is false. http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/publications/governmentprograms/n08-2_park.pdf
Why weren’t the banks howling in protest before Congress if they were being arm-twisted into making faulty loans? I missed the uproar.
@Rednex
I don’t see you around here very often, so let me try and help out since attempts to use logic and reason often result in through-the-looking-glass type experiences.
See, around here people love them some gub’mint. The bigger the better. Every program and anyone associated with government is like a White Knight. Think Paladins in the court of Charlemagne, each with hearts and motives pure as the driven snow and wielding the Sword of One Thousand Truths. Always noble and benevolent with only your best interests at heart. (Unless of course they happen to be Republicans)
All private sector enterprise is evil and exploitative. Those dastardly villains only think about their profits, and the only way that they make those profits is by screwing you over. In other words, private industry exists to steal your money and those benevolent Paladins are only trying to protect you.
Hope that helps. Reflect on this next time before you come in here and start insulting their deity.
@Moon-howler
If the Occupy group should have any beef with the GOP? Really? Of course they do. THEY are leftists. They are being organized, at least somewhat, by the Democrats and their minions.
@Cato, I didn’t realize you drank heavily. Your typing skills are actually pretty good for being so inebriated. Perhaps when you sober up you will apologize for lying about the people around here.