This one isn’t over. The more I have watched different scenes of the students being pepper sprayed, the more revolted I am by the police brutality. This behavior is never acceptable. It appears that Fox News spent Monday making a case justifying this kind of police intervention. Most people I know find it totally unacceptable.
We generally criticize students and young folks in general for not being political. Back in the day, we used to tell people to ‘get off their apathy’ and we discussed tuning in, not out. However, every time young people do get involved, they are criticized tremendously by their more mainstream elders.
College campuses are the place to demonstrate the voice your opinion. Someone in a link left by Cargo had a sign he was holding up that said ‘This is my permit’ and it pointed to the first amendment. Granted, there is a thin line between exercising one’s first amendment rights and civil disobedience, at times. Often that is the risk one takes. But by the same token, in America, we don’t expect to be pepper sprayed or beaten if we are peaceful and conduct ourselves in a civilized manner. Gandhi and MLK would have been horrified, as was Chancellor Linda Katehi who has apologized profusely for the incident and has place the police chief and offending officers on administrative leave.
Is that enough? Is UC Davis one of those campuses where the police department shields a culture of violence towards the students it protects? I have felt for years that is the case in College Park, Maryland which is in Prince George’s County. I hope I am wrong.
Kent State was 41 years ago. Thank goodness UC Davis didn’t turn in to another Kent State. Those students are to be commended for their practice of non-violence. I am not so sure I have it in me to be that passive.
They must have diluted that “pepper spray” with something. You don’t take a good shot of pepper spray and just sit there like those students. I say again, tasters are more interesting, but maybe not on students sitting down. Tasers are best when the tasered is standing up. Watching them hit the ground is half the fun.
So you support police brutality? When do we bring in the brown shirts?
This is just the beginning. The more tuition hikes, the more protests.
That’s the crap that gets used on charging grizzly bears–the stuff that was used on the students.
When pepper spray started being used by police departments, many departments made officers go through being sprayed so they would know exactly what they were doing to people. Apparently these guys missed that part of the training program.
Why not just bring out the fire hoses and the dogs?
This officer, Lt. Pike, apparently was pepper sprayed during his training. His liberal use of the spray probably speaks worse for him given that he’s experienced the results of it and still didn’t hesitate to use it.
The Atlantic had an article about the militarization of the police in this country and how Lt. Pike merely fits the mold. It’s an interesting read following police tactics used for crowd control from escalated force prior to the 1970’s, through negotiated management, and to the present method of strategic incapacitation or a more militarized approach.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/why-i-feel-bad-for-the-pepperspraying-policeman-lt-john-pike/248772/
My only question is why were the officer just placed on “administrative leave?” Why weren’t they summarily fired? I know, I know–there is a union.
To Slow Poke–the more of your stuff I read the more I am convinced you are living proof that A-holes can exist with no other visible means of life support.
I’m sorry, spraying diluted Pepper-Spray and Police Brutality just don’t jive here. Brutality? I could give you examples of brutality, but they involves guns, billy-clubs, and saps, not sprays. Do I support police brutality? Depends on who is being “brutalized”. For smelly hippies? Spray is fine. If it was a bunch of ACLU lawyers sitting there? Break out the clubs!!
Who helps you with the big words?
I have a question.
Is this thread — rather is the hatred shown here for law enforcement because of the method used (pepper spray) or because force was used against adults that are ‘students’ who are now “victims”?
The authorities used excessive force against peaceful, unarmed, students, most of whom were women, and who were doing nothing more than exercising their constitutional right to free assembly. It looked like a scene from the streets of Cairo, not the streets of California.
The authorities must learn to respect the constitutional rights of our citizens.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/it-figures-uc-davis-students-agreed-to-be-pepper-sprayed-before-incident-video/
If the students were worried…they didn’t show it. They seem to have planned it. Watch the first part….they knew it was coming and were fine with it. They wanted to make sure that THEY were the targets, not the surrounding crowd.
This was set up by the students to get this reaction. I’ve been gassed, more than once. It hurts. It washes off and you’re fine.
How do you suggest, if not pepper spray, that the officer enforce the law and his instructions to move the protesters? Police brutality? No. Again…pepper spray, while painful, is the LEAST dangerous compliance tool in their tool chest. Would you rather that they forcibly pull resisting protesters apart?
Since they could not ignore the protesters…this WAS the safest way to do it…for all involved. Would you rather that the cops be forced to use tasers? Billy clubs? Arm twisting? What?
And Starry…your hyperbole is showing. Cairo? Really? Where did you see rubber bullets, truncheons, and gun fire?
The protesters on the ground….civil disobedience. The surrounding crowd….peaceful protest. You notice…THEY didn’t get sprayed……and they could have been a threat.
@Cargo,
No one is fine with being pepper sprayed in the face. Absolutely no one. I have only talked to cop types who have had it done to them as part of training. They said they never wanted to do that again.
I am speechless that you just told me the students knew it was coming and they were fine with it. WHAT PLANET ARE YOU ON TODAY?
I dont see why anything had to be used on them. Step over them or carry them off. It works quite well of Operation Rescue. I have seen it done many times.
I promise you there would be a hue and cry if Operation Rescue was ever pepper sprayed.
I am shocked by the lack of outrage by the conservatives on this blog, truly shocked.
Are there only parts of the Constitution sacred? Is it only the second amendment that draws your unconditional support?
So now we have the 14th amendment that isn’t valid AND the 1st amendment, what hypocrisy.
just as a quick reminder:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
FYI, those kids WERE peaceably assmebled, no ifs ands or buts about it.
The kids were looking for a YouTube moment, and they got it. The pepper spraying was likely heavy-handed, but as I said in an earlier thread, we don’t have the whole story. Michael Moore was crowing today about how this incident will be “iconic” for the OWS movement, and how it will mobilize college students all over the country. These kids are smart enough to know how the media work, and they played the game. I’m sure some of them feel a little pepper in the eye was a small price to pay for their very own viral video.
“I am shocked by the lack of outrage by the conservatives on this blog, truly shocked.”
What am I supposed to be outraged by? The restraint shown? That lethal force wasn’t used? That the officer tried not to injure people?
“Are there only parts of the Constitution sacred? Is it only the second amendment that draws your unconditional support?”
Didn’t you say that the first amendment had limits? That funeral protests we’re “off limits”? I went on record saying they were protected under the 1A. I don’t recall many people backing me up on that. Guess which way the SCOTUS went? No one here has said those students (I REFUSE to call them kids) or hippies {whichever} don’t have a 1A right to say what they want but they don’t have to block a road/path to do it.
Now, if we want to have a separate debate/argument about use of force policies I think you’ll find some conservative friends that will agree with you. For example; I would support you (or the idea) of a civilian police review board {in PWC or wherever}. I support the idea of civilians reviewing use of force and other SOPs that county officers use.
But, that’s not where this thread is aimed.
Cargo, you stole my thunder — I was going to go down the use of force path. 😉
The “police brutality victims” smile and giggle about their “torture”
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/11/22/uc-davis-pepper-spray-massacre-victims-smile-and-almost-giggle-describing-their-torture/
I keep hearing about this “brutality” and that it was over the top. So far, no one has given me the alternative for the cop to use that is safer.
So…are the cops supposed to ignore their orders? Are they supposed to ignore that the protesters are ignoring commands to disperse and stop blocking the way? If the protesters has stood with the rest of the crowd….they could have stayed all day.
I did. Carry them out like Operation Rescue if they must be removed. Or…let them sit there.
You certainly protect your own civil rights loudly while being all too willing to allow someone else’s to be violated. You seem to think it is ok to pepper spray people who sat there and really were doing nothing. Peaceful resistance.
How would you feel about pepper spraying Operation Rescue who do this all the time while breaking the law. (preventing people from seeking medical attention and preventing people from going to work)? How would you feel if the OC Davis cops had used dogs or fire hoses.
These students were on their own campus for God’s sake. They weren’t attacking anyone or damaging property.
@Moon-howler
UC Davis is public property and they we’re blocking the flow of traffic. Would you equally defend an action of blocking I66 during rush hour?
They could have been walked around, marin. College campuses are just one of those places where demonstations happen.
That campus is semi public property, like any institution of learning. It isn’t like a public park that truly is open to the public.
Who were they hurting? They were sitting there like Gandhi. None of you all siding with the cops will answr the question about dogs and firehoses. I am going to assume those would be ok with you also, since you haven’t renounced them despite me asking twice before.
Locking arms and blocking access to somewhere while shouting you’re “peaceful” is horse$hit. As for Operation Rescue, screw them too. If they’re using force to restrain someone else’s freedom of movement then spray away.
I agree screw them but not with pepper spray. I don’t believe in using chemical agents on humans or animals who are not attacking or tearing up something. Now, if they attack, charge at you, or move towards you in a menacing way, fair game. If they tear up other people’s or public property, fair game.
These dudes weren’t really blocking access to a place or to someone’s movement.
@Moon-howler
If the Operation Rescue people are blocking the right of way and committing civil disobedience and we have to separate them to arrest them or move them on, or force them to just obey the law….pepper spray is a legal compliance tool. Much better than breaking or spraining arms to unlock them from each other.
There ARE consequences of civil disobedience. That’s why its called that. The protesters PLANNED for this and were agreeable to it. The one that the cop talked to was told that they were going to get sprayed. After getting clarification that only THEY were getting sprayed….he said, “fine, fine.” They wanted the press. That’s all this was… a planned press event so that they got good PR.
And it worked.
This guy has good points about this whole mess. And, if you don’t know…this group was part of a larger group that had “occupied” an admin building.
http://blog.robballen.com/2011/11/23/p5247-a-cornucopia-of-thoughts-complaints-and-rants.post
Make sure you read the comments.
This one has an interesting point.
http://www.exurbanleague.com/Home/tabid/40/EntryId/1430/No-cheap-grace.aspx
I had to stop reading. He started off calling them cry baby rich kids. He has no idea why they were even protesting. He has no idea how old they are or how much their parents make.
Why should I even listen to someone’s opinion who starts off like that?
Many people are putting themselves through college. They work low level jobs and they have 10s of thousands of dollars in student loans. Most of those demonstrations were over the rise in tuition. That certainly is something that affects students on a University of California campus. My stepson went to San Jose State. He put himself through school.
Its the broadbrush that just incenses me.
This one has good comments too.
http://www.pagunblog.com/2011/11/23/not-going-to-join-the-condemnation-of-uc-police/
The gunbloggers are looking at this from all sides, looking at 1st Amendment rights, police procedure, and whether this was really a peaceful protest, and the consequences of not enforcing the law, ie. escalation of provocation by the protesters.
I would prefer to not live in a society where the police have the unbridled right to do this to people who are peacefully protesting.
I continue to ask, would you be comfortable with firehoses and dogs? Or even just firehoses. That is a compliance tool.
What if one of those cops were trying to take away one of your precious guns?
It seems like some of you all are far more interested in protecting your own rights than someone elses. At least Marin is more or less honest about it…whats in it for him.
You seem to be under the impression that I’m 100% for this. Remember, I said previously that the cops..actually their bosses….should have ignored the protesters on the sidewalk.
Unfortunately you do live in a society where the police have, not the right, but the power, granted by the citizenry, to use force to get compliance. And the protesters planned for it.
Would you be comfortable with protesters blocking the road to your house? Would you approve of force to stop that civil disobedience?
And cops take away guns all the time. And if I was committing civil disobedience with my gun…such as bringing it onto a campus where I’m a student or wearing it in DC….They would use force to stop me if I did not comply with their orders. That’s reality.
So…you comply with the police. Or you get forced to comply with the police. And if you feel your rights have been violated…sue. Many a gun owner has made some money off of the police. The Norfolk police paid thousands to a man that open carried on a bus. He was black. And because of that….they harassed and arrested him and he was able to prove it.
Then the idiots did it again. At another location, while other men were open carrying nearby….white men. He complied. And won that case.
If the protesters feel their rights are violated, I support their every right to make as much money from UC Davis and get as much satisfaction as they can.
I am not sure that I agree that gun violations are civil disobedience. How about just breaking the law?
Maybe we need to define civil disobedience. I take that to mean, if the cop tells you you cannot sit on the sidewalk and to move on, and you don’t, that is civil disobedience. However, toting a gun on the campus of a Virginia school k-12 is breaking the law. Hampton Sidney, not a problem. Mary Washington, breaking the law.
As for UC, I don’t know about their rights or anything else. What I saw was unacceptable police brutality. Had they been swarming the cops in a threatening manner, I would not feel it was police brutality. I am not opposed to tazing, spraying or even shooting people who pose a threat (based on degree) , especially to law enforcement. I am not anti cop. I am anti bad cop.
I think, philosophically, the problem is….
when the discussion about rights and freedoms was being formulated….when the Constitution was written…. there were no police. If a magistrate had a problem…he used soldiers or militia. And if the militia is made up of the people whose rights are being violated…its hard to continue to violate those rights. That’s why there was a problem of handing a standing army during peacetime.
The cops are now that standing army. They are LAW ENFORCEMENT, not rights protectors.
They will enforce the law as it is written. They have no choice. That is the duty we have given them, and the restrictions that we put on them.
And perhaps we have given them too much power.
For one thing…why does a campus of ANY college need its own police, much less one that is equipped like a SWAT team? Shouldn’t the local police force be all that’s needed? I have the same problem with that fact down here. Why does VCU need its own police force? Not a security force, but a police force with full powers of arrest? If you have a hammer…eventually you are going to hit something…..
There were constables back then.
Is there a law against sitting together on a sidewalk? Cops can do whatever they want until someone tells them they can’t. I ran in to this in Virginia Beach. Lots of cops because there are lots of tourists. They were mostly poorly trained because they were just there for the summer. UC Davis (or any other location) are campus police. Compare and contrast to a professionally trained department like Prince William County. There is no comparison. I can’t imagine Chief Deane putting up with that kind of indiscretion for one minute.
All colleges and universities in Virginia have campus police. They deal with campus matters. I expect most aren’t as professionally trained as the Richmond Police Dept. Larger campuses need to be able to deal with more critical law enforcement.
Then there is VA Tech.
@Moon-howler
So…any time you don’t answer a question we pose to you…we can assume the worst also? Good to know.
Dogs and fire hoses? Straw argument. They don’t do that anymore. Otherwise they would have been used in Oakland and New York. Oh..and its against the law. Its not the cops that should be reprimanded. Its their bosses. What did they expect the cops to do when they told them to remove or stop the civil disobedience?
I still haven’t had your alternative to the cops forcing them to separate by wrestling with them. Injuries WILL result.
The police have a strict regimen of escalation that is followed, with regulations for each.
Physical presence->Verbal request->Verbal command->Soft hands-on measures->Chemical weapon->Hard hands-on countermeasures->Impact weapon->Deadly force.
So…by the videos presented, we see that the chain of escalation has already passed up to Chemical. The other protesters surrounding those sitting on the ground were NOT gassed. THEY were peacefully assembling without restricting the right of free passage. And yes…blocking a sidewalk is restricting the right of free passage.
In fact, this is the very escalation response that is followed for all law enforcement and why one can state that you can be killed for not paying a fine for refusing to get health insurance. All you have to do is continue to resist arrest. To not comply with the state.
Personally, I think that the fools on the sidewalk should have been ignored. Except for pointing and laughing, that is….
Oh…and this being in California…their 2nd Amendment rights have already been stripped. I notice that they didn’t protest that. California is NOT a free state. Perhaps the Occupiers could protest something that actually affects their rights, instead of whining about…well….what were their demands THIS time?
See…this type of protest is actually counter-productive. No one remembers what they wanted, only that they and the cops were both in conflict.
Whining about how much their college tuition is? Why do you keep calling them occupiers? They are students.
I don’t think they are protesting rights. They are protesting their tution going up. I don’t think tuition is a right. YOU don’t think it is important. They do.
@Moon-howler
Firehoses and dogs are not the best tools for this situation. So, no I would not support that level of force being used. On the whole I *do* support the use of a K9 or a firehose if there were no other less than lethal means to achieve the objective of restoring order.
A riot breaking out and use of tear gas? Sure. Use of a firehose to clear a mass amount of rebels blocking access to a hospital? Hell yes, do it twice. A few hippies blocking a path? Pepper spray is just fine.
Now, Cargo does bring up a good point. I don’t support them 100%. My support has an asterick on it. We as a society need to ‘fix’ things by looking at the role of our civilian police force, what powers we give them (why is the phone number of a police officer something that can’t be FOIA’d?, why can they wear a ‘mask in public’, why can they carry a gun into a K-12 school and I can’t?) and adjust those powers and in some instances maybe take back some of our rights.
I think if pro-life radicals are blocking access to a (whats the new term??) hospital-like facility that they should be sprayed too. They have a right to say their piece but not a right to block me from doing what I want to do. Toss the jokers in jail for being brigands.
“What if one of those cops were trying to take away one of your precious guns?
You mean from my cold dead hands?????? Ask yourself, would the cops have tried this if they knew the protestors were armed? 😉
“It seems like some of you all are far more interested in protecting your own rights than someone elses. At least Marin is more or less honest about it…whats in it for him.”
I think that was from another thread as I’ve indicated that I support the protestors right to protest. Hell, I’d love for them to be armed protestors 😉 but the fact remains you can protest and NOT block a persons path.
“For one thing…why does a campus of ANY college need its own police, much less one that is equipped like a SWAT team?”
One day when I become Bill Gates rich I will have my own business campus patrolled by my own police force that are appointed Special Conservators of the Police. In case the hippies attack I’ll also put in a call to Blackwater. 😉 PMC’s are where the money is……
That’s weird, Moon.
Your #29 post is timed later than the rest of the posts. Its an answer to my posts but it comes before them. It wasn’t there when I wrote mine.
@Moon-howler
They were stating that they were allied with Occupy and another part of their group “occupied” an admin building.
As for tuition going up…sucks to be them. I are a collidge stoodent too now. I know all about it. And I can’t afford a college like that…so….I don’t have too much sympathy for the price of their college. Or for protesters whining about college loans.
But if they want to protest corruption and rights violations…I’m all for them.