When did Fox News turn in to the 700 Club? Apparently this past Thanksgiving. The foxies all got bunched up over counting how often President Obama said ‘God’ in his Thanksgiving Day address. Give me a break! Thanksgiving is a secular holiday.
Jon Stewart has a great deal to say about the Foxies making much ado over stuffing on Thanksgiving:
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon – Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Much Ado About Stuffing | ||||
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Isn’t religion a private matter? Fox News really made a big deal out of this issue. They have outdone themselves. This falls into the land of who cares with me. I don’t need presidents to tell me to talk about God. If I want to, I do. If I don’t, I don’t.
Let’s face it, The job of Fox News is to stir up stuff about President Obama. 🙄
So is Fox also responsible for “In God We Trust” being plastered on every piece of US currency? So who’s to blame for that in your face religious statement, since it apparently upsets people to even bring up the subject these days? Once upon a time it was accepted and supported, but in this PC time of not being a Christian nation those few who are upset now have the biggest say.
That sure is a quantum leap, SA. How did you get from Fox News criticizing the Prez for not mentioning God, to “In God We Trust?”
What in your face religious remark? What upsets people when brought up?
I honestly don’t get what you are saying. We are not technically a Christian nation. There is no established church. Our forefathers thought that important enough to be our first amendment. However, currently, the majority of people in this nation are Christian or culturally Christian.
If that upsets people, I can’t help it.
Why bother with God when the new Thanksgiving ethos is “Spend, spend, spend! The earlier the better!” It has become incumbent upon Christians to do their part for the economic good by obeying the “Spend, spend, spend!” command by passing up that last glass of wine with family so they can get a good place in line and grab a midnight doorbuster at Walmart. It’s the new “gratitude.” Your sacred holiday duty is “Spend, spend, spend!” We’ll use all your religious symbols and music to sell you stuff, but STFU about all that “Merry Christmas” crap when you are making your “holiday” purchases.
That might be a fair remark to make in general. The Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade has been around as long as I have been at least. That is simply advertising and revving up for Christmas.
However, that isn’t what the President said. Please tell me you aren’t blaming him for the the early Christmas shopping. And by the way, it isn’t new. I can remember my mother bitching about it when I was a kid…the early merchandizing.
I don’t care whether someone tells me Merry Christmas or not. Not everyone is Christian. Why should I expect someone to wish me Merry Christmas if they are Jewish? Muslim? Pagan? Some do, some don’t. However, for an employer to force an employee to well wish, I am not so sure that is fair. I wouldn’t want it done to me for some other religion.
Why can’t we all just be satisfied wishing our friends and neighors a Merry Christmas if we so choose?
I think people should be able to say what they want to acknowledge holidays, both religious and secular. Again, why the big deal?
Fox news is an embarrassment. There really isn’t much to say. I am so tired of people shoving their religion down my throat. I have known plenty of “religious” people who were not good human beings. Behave decent, treat your fellow man with respect and kindness, and the rest will follow. Uttering the word “G-d” does NOT make one a good person, that is my FYI for the day.
Uttering the word “G-d” does not instantaneously form a shield of righteousness around you. In fact, in my opinion, the judging of President Obama was not G-dly at all. Go feed some homeless people, ACT in G-dly way, stop wasting your energy on stupid vaccuous crap like this Fox news commentators and guests.
Since none of us were a round for the first Thanksgiving (actually celebrated in Virginia a few years before the one up north), we can only guess what or who people were for/to. I suspect God was thanked by many. And I suspect the folks up north also thanked God for the bountiful harvest along with the fact that they had managed to survive another year.
As to Christmas–it should be remembered–Jesus is the reason for the season. Can you think of any other religion that celebrates Christmas? I can’t. However, the Jewish folks get pretty close with Chanukah–not a celebration of the birth of Christ but a time of reflection. If I understand, there also is some gift giving (I suspect this reflects the encroachment of the commercial Christmas).
So as Elena has recommended, behave decently, treat your fellow man with respect, do some good works and reflect on how fortunate we are to live in this land at this time.
Thanksgiving is not a secular holiday. It may be observed by secular people, just as Christmas is, but neither is a secular holiday. To whom would we be giving our thanks?
@Steve Thomas
Steve, I think Moon’s comment about it being a “secular” holiday is that it is not set aside as a recognized religious holiday like Easter, Christmas and all the other “holidays” Catholics throw in. I’m with you though on the idea of who do we give thanks to. Possibly the turkey? Joking of course.
@Steve Thomas
maybe give thanks to the Jews? 😉
http://theshiksa.com/2010/09/22/sukkot-the-harvest-holiday/
Sukkot is a harvest holiday, which means that the foods served are seasonal in nature. The Sukkot menu generally features vegetables and fruits that are harvested at the turn of the season—apples, squash, eggplants, grapes, etc. As a food lover, this holiday is one of my favorites because we are encouraged to create dishes from fresh and delicious seasonal ingredients. The arrival of Sukkot ushers in the autumn season; Sukkot foods are inspired by the bounty of the harvest.
Does this all sound a little familiar? You might have noticed that the Sukkot holiday resembles the American tradition of Thanksgiving. Believe it or not, the similarities between Sukkot and Thanksgiving actually have a historical frame of reference. Before coming to the New World, the Pilgrims lived for a short time among Sephardic Jews in Holland. In fact, our American Thanksgiving tradition may have been indirectly inspired by the Jewish holiday of Sukkot.
@George
all those Jewish kids were probably thinking of converting! We had to keep up somehow 🙂
You give thanks to whomever you feel deserves it.
It is secular in that it is declared a holiday by the government and it is not designated as any specific religious holiday.
I hate it when people start shoving religion down other people’s throats like Fox News did. I turned it off when that business started. It is enraging and it gives Christians a bad name.
MOST Christians aren’t counting coup on how many times a person says God. In fact, doing that is what I was taught was very un-Christian. I am tired of having to apologize for people like that to my non-Christian friends.
@Elena
“maybe give thanks to the Jews?”
I do believe the Jews were giving thanks to a higher power. From an American tradition, and considering the founding and first American Thanksgiving were held by those from a Judeo-Christian faith, I’d think thanks was given to the same power. But my point was not that “Thanksgiving” is a Christian holiday, although that was its orgin in the New World. My point was that “Thanksgiving” is not a “secular” holiday. Sure, it has been secularized in that we wrap it in football and early Black Friday sales, but the original call for a day of thanks by our government was an acknowledgement to our creator of the blessings bestowed upon us. Could an athiest celebrate thanksgiving? I suppose. But to whom would they be “giving thanks”? The supermarket, where they bought their turkey and trimmings? Aunt Sue for her apple pie? Christmas is a designated holiday. So is Easter. So, is it being argued that a day celebrating the birth of Christ, and another his ressurection are “secular” too. Now, making a big deal out of our President using or not using the word “God” in a holiday address is petty. But I think the whole argument of these clearly Christian holidays being “secular” is an overreaction. Really. Perhaps one day, the secular progressives will succeed in eliminating anything Christian in origin from the public square. Thanksgiving will be “Turkey and Football day”. Christmas the “Winter Solstice Feast”. Easter: “The festival of the Spring Spheres”. Have you ever stopped to consider this from the Christians perspective? Athiests aren’t suing to have Manorahs removed from public property, just crosses. Prayer rooms are being set aside in public schools to accomodate Muslims, but don’t you dare say a Christian prayer before a football game. Get that copy of the 10-commandments (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all acknowledge these as a source of authority to some degree), outta the public square! If Christians are going on offense, it’s because the defense hasn’t been working. This isn’t a proclamation that non-Christians are any less than Christians. “God” is a generic term for a higher, supernatural being, who is acknowldeged by many faiths. If someone want’s to alter the pledge of allegience to say “One nation, under Christ”, well then maybe non-Christians might have an argument.
I have to stop reading and backtrack. I only said Thanksgiving was secular. I believe Christmas and Easter are religious holidays. Christmas at least is a designated holiday that came about because of Christianity. Easter is on a Sunday so I suppose it isn’t designated. I never thought about it.
All religions can give thanks. So can non-religious people. I expect an atheist could be thankful that his family was around him or that crops had been good. Perhaps thankfulness is simply an acknowledgement of our bounty. Some of us thank the lord, others thank people, events, or circumstances.
Steve,
Faux news created a story where there was none. People can argue all day long that our founding fathers were diesists, not Christians. At the end of the day, I”m not sure why it matters. American values can be honored by atheists as well as the most religious as they are non demoninational, that is what makes America so awesome.
I am tired of having other peoples faith put into my face and some people presuming to require Presidents to show how “christian” they are, how faith based they really are. Like Rush Limbaugh who made of Michael J Fox and his Parkinsons is anyone to judge who is a good person!
Does this little tidbit escape the minds of some people:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof……………”
There is no establishment of religion. President Obama can speak about religion or CHOOSE not too, both are American values. I might add that atheists don’t worship any higher power and agnostics are cautiously waiting to see if someone can “prove” a G-d exists. People are good or bad, not based on their religion but based on their behavior.
Steve, don’t you think majority religions tend to try to trump other religions, regardless?
I have seen it many times within Christianty. Go to one of those small towns in Utah along I-15 for a while as a …Catholic or Presbyterian. You will not fit in. Go to a small southern town somewhere and be AG when the rest of the town is Baptist. You won’t fit in so well there either. Not everyone does that and I don’t really mean to imploy that everyone does, but I have sure seen it and yes, felt it. Well, you aren’t really a Christian because…..
My husband was made to feel excluded because even though he was Catholic, he didn’t go to parochial school like most of the kids in his church. He was told he wasn’t a real Catholic.
As for Christian holidays being watered down, I think it is up to Christians to honor those holidays and keep them as part of the culture within the Christian community. If Christians do this, there is nothing that outsiders can do to stomp them out.
What really hurts Christianity is to count how many times the Prez says God. You and I both agree it is petty. But it also makes all Christians look petty to those people who aren’t Christian. It broadbrushes. I don’t particularly want to be tarred and feathered with that broadbrush.
Outsiders have no way of knowing that all of us aren’t sitting around counting how many times Obama says God.
must have been a slow news day.
@Pat,
We are all sort of exhausted from the BOCS affair. A slow news day is sometimes a good thing. I thought Jon Stewart was hilarious and it is that time of year….I think Stewart’s point is very valid.
It has not been my intention to spark a debate regarding the various religons, denominations or have a sprinkle vs. Dunk discussion. My point was that Thanksgiving is not a secular holiday. It wasn’t established as a secular holiday, and it has only become secularized as our society has become more secularized. Setting aside a day to “Give Thanks” is not establishing a state religon, any more than putting “In God We Trust” on our money is. Also, I could care less if this President mentons God in an address, or says “may God Bless America” in a speech. Fox making a big deal out of it, ain’t exactly news anymore than it’s news that my dog barks at squirrels. He’s a dog, afterall. That’s what dogs do.
I always give thanks to the Jews. Well, at least one Jew.
My wife cooked, as always, a GREAT meal. And here I thought that this post was going to be recipes. DARN!
I always give thanks to the Jews. Well, at least one Jew. If I don’t, I have to cook next year.
My wife cooked, as always, a GREAT meal. And here I thought that this post was going to be recipes. DARN!
Oops…somehow posted twice.
If you feel like it, you can delete this one and #19.
@Steve Thomas
I think perhaps our point of departure on this subject is over the definition of ‘secular. I am looking at it as a date set by Congress and ushered in by presidents. It didn’t necessarily grow out of churches or religions. I will agree that it is generally associated with people giving thanks to God although not exclusively.
Christmas and Easter emerged out of the Christian calendar and were definitely Christian holidays. Hanukkah is definitely a Jewish holiday. Those holidays exist when they do, regardless of what the government does.
Official Thanksgiving was established by the government. That’s the only reason I have for calling it a secular holiday.
As for Fox News, I agree, that’s just what they do.
@ Steve Thomas–just a minor point–Winter Solstice was celebrated a llooonnggg time before the Christian Christmas and maybe before Sukkot. The Winter Solstice, Christmas trees and Yule were co-opted by the Catholic Church, as were various Spring rites including the Jewish Passover, in order to bring folks into the church. They probably have very little to do with the actual birth and death/resurrection of Christ.
And to harken back to Thanksgiving, here is an interesting little piece: http://spofga.org/flag/2010/first_thanksgiving.php
I suspect Elena’s suggestion about Sukkot may be a good starting point for what we think of as Thanksgiving–a harvest festival.
Virginia, home of the first Thanksgiving. Yes!!!
“To be a Virginian either by Birth, Marriage, Adoption, or even on one’s Mother’s side
is an Introduction to any State in the Union, a Passport to any Foreign Country, and a Benediction from Above.”
@George S. Harris
George,
No disagreement here. I have studied Church history in-depth, to include the co-opting of Pagan celebration feast dates into the early church calendar, as well as certain pagan symbols such as the evergreen tree, into Christian tradition. Also, I fully and completely acknowldege the Jewish traditions that are part of the Christian faith. As I often point out to many of my Christian friends, Jesus was born, lived and was crucified as a Jew. The apostles were all practicing Jews. The whole concept of “Christ” is a Jewish one. Without the Jews, there would be no Christian faith. Besides Jesus, there is another Jew who has had a profound impact on my life. Paul. A Jewish Pharisee.
If you read the Thanksgiving proclamation by our first President, it certainly does not sound as if it were intended to be secular …. non-denominational perhaps, but certainly not secular.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/GW/gw004.html
Hi Kelly, I wasn’t speaking of historical Thanksgiving. I only meant that Thanksgiving didn’t arise from the church and its date was declared by the government. (contrast to Christmas and Easter)
I think the problem is with the word secular…and what it means to different people…or so I am finding out. I think secular is code for a lot of things.