This is just one of those things you never want to get out. Back in ‘olden days’ before everyone had a camera embedded in their cell phone, all this might have flown. Not in acceptable company, mind you, but amongst buddies, it might have. No more. The Brass has been embarrassed and has no option but to come down heavy on the offenders.
All members of the military are going to have to accept that the rules have all changed and things done to the enemy will no longer be acceptable. Part of me sits here thinking, “big deal” after some of what I have seen from the spoils of Vietnam. Another part of me sits here thinking why on earth would these knuckleheads put our country in the position of having to apologize to the freaking Taliban? This same Taliban is the one who stones women who have been raped and refuses women an education. This same Taliban has allowed terrorists to train and has killed Americans.
I am curious as to what others really think. Do we have a public face that really cares and a private face that shrugs off something like this?
I think maybe we do. I also have a little male schnauzer who likes to lift his leg on the grocery bags. He likes the noise it makes. I think that perhaps our marines were just marking their territory, much like my teenage dog.
The bottom line is the behavior is unacceptable and they were caught. Red handed…well…Red something’ed. We can never be put in a position of having to apologize for such stupid behavior. Its all about the public eye and we just don’t pass on this one. Hopefully others will learn from this embarrassing mistake.
Completely unacceptable military conduct.
Their Gunny needs to give them a stern talking to.
Of course, the proper response by our government is this.
President Karzai…yes…I understand. So…we’ll take care of it. Apologies? Of course not. We’ll apologize after we stop seeing child raping, women beating, drug producing, corrupt Afghanis apologize for their actions. As for the Taliban….sucks to be them.
Oh…by the way….we won’t be protecting your sorry ass in the near future. Have a nice day.
“President Karzai…yes…I understand. So…we’ll take care of it. Apologies? Of course not. We’ll apologize after we stop seeing child raping, women beating, drug producing, corrupt Afghanis apologize for their actions. As for the Taliban….sucks to be them”
This is just a PR problem. Trying to strike some moral-deficiency equivilant to what the Taliban and Al Qiaeda have done to Americans (beheading) is a joke. Also, let us not forget that a favorite tactic of G’itmo detainees is to fling urine and excrement at military gaurds. Will this result in a few Article-15’s for those involved? Most likely. Not so much for what they did, but for being stupid enough to post it on Youtube. Now, if I were still an active duty Marine Officer, I would not encourage or condone this behavior, but it does not rise to the same level as what went on in Abu Gharib.
It looks like I might not be as off base in my thinking as I thought.
Did one of them really post the video on youtube? How incredibly stupid.
The New York Post via Instapundit:
For our part, we’re withholding judgment. There have been too many such seemingly shocking episodes that, upon investigation, turn out to be less than that.
The high-profile case of Marine Lt. Ilario Pantano — accused of murdering Iraqis, but exonerated late last year — certainly illustrates the point. But maybe they did do it. Marine Corps Commandant James Amos says he’ll get to the bottom of it all.
Still, as wartime atrocities go, this is pretty mild stuff. My Lai, for sure, it ain’t.
And, again, the Taliban sure ain’t — excuse the metaphor — choirboys.
Maybe somebody should ask Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl about it.
Oh, wait: The Islamists beheaded him — on videotape.
Perspective, folks. Perspective.
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Don’t get me wrong. This was completely unprofessional and they really should be reprimanded. But its NOT the “crime” that its going be described as in all the press and gov’t statements.
I am not sure I see jail time as being appropriate. I doubt if someone would go to jail for doing that in a bar room squabble. I did hear jail time on TV. That seems like overkill. Losing rank or other forms of punishment, yes. Jail or discharge, no.
I think I was grossed out for all the wrong reasons. There is just something so male about doing that. I grew up with brothers…no sisters. Need I say more?
I agree, this is completely unacceptable.
Every grunt knows that when you’re finished using a latrine you cover it with dirt. The fact that these guys did not is outrageous.
What the hell do they teach in boot camp these days?
@Cato the Elder
Oh man! I thought that I was being harsh…. You win the internet on that one.
I did an interview on this issue with PRI’s The World anchor Marco Werman. It aired this evening.
http://www.theworld.org/2012/01/us-marines-identified-in-urination-video/
NIce job, Moe. I would post it on here if I could figure out how to do it.
Somehow as Americans we always want to take the high road. There are many scum bucket in the world. We don’t want to join them.
How do we learn to kill unless we dehumanize our enemy, just out of curiosity? Most of us are taught from infancy that killing is wrong.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/were-all-guilty-of-dehumanizing-the-enemy/2012/01/13/gIQAtRduwP_story.html?hpid=z5
interesting article.
@Moon-howler
Good article.
But I want to add…I don’t think that the Marines were dehumanizing the Taliban. I think that they were profoundly aware of their humanity. Urinating on them insults them and their allies. If you dehumanize the enemy….you don’t insult them. You just kill them.
I suppose all that is a matter of definition.
Sometimes dehumanizing the ‘enemy’ first is what allows us to kill them.
Moon, having spent time as a Drill Sargeant and conducted weapons qualification..and then more than once been tapped to be a Range NCO for annual requalification, you teach the individual how to shoot the weapon, and strive to engrain the locating, sighting and shooting of the enemy as a reflex action. All reflex, no thinking of “gee, it is another person there and I am getting ready to put a round in him”.
That is how the military inbeds in you the dehumanizing…make it a reflex so, as the one soldier said in your linked article, you go home alive. Tough part is teaching the person how to live with it afterwards. Many of us do and many of us are broken, but that is our human side.
For the Marines, Navy SEALs, and Soldiers, that is the bottom line – Stay Alert, Stay Alive! Gets easier if your an aviator dropping a bomb from thousands of feet up, or sending a missle downrange, or like some of my Navy Family Members, put a shell in a gun and fire from miles away.
I think I would be one of those who never saw the whites of the eyes. I would prefer to drop bombs. Less personal with the targets.
@Moon-howler
Ray’s definition is what I mean by dehumanizing. Modern military training emphasizes the enemy as “Target!” “Fire!” You don’t insult a target.
But you do insult humans.
In earlier days, we dehumanized by insulting and belittling…making the enemy less than our equals. Now…Target! Hit! Next!
Whatever gets our guys through the day.
The media are the ones that are fueling this. Unacceptable and stupid …yes. But what has been done to our people like what Cargo said about Daniel Pearl and others is also unacceptable. I wish the media would spend more time reporting about what a horrible place our soldiers are in for no good reason I can understand.