Tonight Bill O’Reilly spent a great deal of his show addressing Rick Santorum’s remarks about JFK making him (Rick) want to throw up. The remarks of both men were heard and then O’Reilly deferred to Ronald Reagan. While saying that Santorum had gone too far, O’Reilly pretty much said that there was a war on people of faith.
Frankly, as a ‘people of faith,’ I have never felt a war on my faith. What I have felt is people of other faiths trying to shove theirs down my throat, from knocks at the door, to having to say someone’s prayer in public meetings, or listen to lectures from others about who would and would not get to the promised land. I have been questioned about my right to call myself a Christian.
Yes, I feel under attack. I shouldn’t have to do any of those things. I prefer a secular world outside of my church. I feel that I go to my church to learn, worship, restore and commune. What I bring out is behavior that is reflective of my faith. I should treat others as I would like to be treated. I watch Elena live her faith. As you all know, we are of different faiths. Yet she and I have more in common than I do with many other Christians. I was raised that my religion was not to be shouted about. To do so was to show off.
So I don’t feel the war. How is war declared on Christians? I don’t want the recent flap on contraception as part of an answer. That just becomes circular talk. Let’s find some other examples. How about wars on other faiths? When did it start? Was Madalyn Murray O’Hare the beginning or did her efforts free us up from other people’s religion? I would very much like to hear how the secular world has declared war.
I remember when I was in high school, the group “young life” had their posters plastered everywhere, the kids who were in it hung out in the front hall, like they ran the school. I started my own group, “Jewish Young Life” and my co creator was not even Jewish!
I ended up getting sent to the Principals office and I defended my right to have my group. The discussion of course ended up being about organized religion in school and I thought that it was actually inappropriate to have ANY religeous group “advertized on school grounds”.
I feel as though people like me(not christian) just put up with other people pushing their beliefs on me. You know what though, maybe now, with the invasion of religion in politics, people are getting tired of their Democracy being co-opted by a faction of society that believes they must force their views on others. I want to be FREE from other peoples religion. There is no reason I should know what G-d people worship. That is a private matter and one that belongs needs to remain IN private. I find people who wear their religion in neon lights as their “mantle of rightosness” to be very suspect of their true motivations.
I would trade a moral atheist for an immoral religious person anyday, no matter who they worship!
Is Young Life still allowed in schools? I found it to be very cult like and made kids who didn’t buy into it feel very left out. I was viewing this as an adult and not as a student.
My husband always complains about how he had to say someone else’s Lord’s Prayer in school. As a Catholic, he resented having to say the protestant version.
When I was a kid, we always took the weekly religion class because it was embarrassing to say you weren’t interested.
Kennedy’s statement is still the best I’ve heard and read
when it comes to religion in a political context.
@Punchak, It was certainly good enough to withstand the test of time.
All those on their high horse need to remember that those who elected Kennedy lived through WWII and most were part of the Greatest Generation.
How dare some little snot nose like Rick Santorum say that JFK makes him want to throw up! JFK paved the way for him and many others. Furthermore, he didn’t even listen to what JFK really said.
I’m not a religious person exactly, but who teaches morality anymore? If not religion, then who? You say parents should, but when they were children who taught them, and so forth and so on. If religion focused more on morality instead of worship to supposedly get into heaven (although Hubble hasn’t spotted it yet), then I think the world would be better off.
SA,
I have friends who are atheist, they are wonderful people, as are their kids. I happen to believe there is some being higher than me, but I do not believe that is a prerequisite for being moral. In fact, I find morality often lacking in religious people.
Elena, I agree, some think that as long as you attend church you are covered for all the rotten things you do during the rest of the week. Sort of a ‘get out of jail free’ card. My church dwelled more on morality as it related to the people around you here on earth whereas my wife’s church dwelled more on getting a good position in the life ever after. The one thing I know is that mortal man hasn’t a clue as to how all this got started, and yet every religion thinks they have the answer however different that might be. A great example of worship over morals is what’s occurring in Afghanistan at the moment.
SA,
That is how I was raised, it’s about the good deeds that bring you happiness here on earth, there is no emphasis on a “heaven”. You “live” on through the good deeds you do, through your children, through the legacy you leave behing.
More stupidity from Santorum, on mulitple levels I might add!
“I get a kick out of folks who call for equality now, the people on the left, ‘Well, equality, we want equality.’ Where do you think this concept of equality comes from?” Santorum asked the enthusiastic crowd packed into a restaurant here. “It doesn’t come from Islam. It doesn’t come from the East and Eastern religions, where does it come from? It comes from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that’s where it comes from.”
NOT that I believe Rick Santorum is the position to judge anyone’s belief, but this statement demonstrates what a complete moronic “theologin” he portends to be! He is so stupid he doesn’t realize that Abraham IS the father of Islam. DUH! Is he so ignorant of the bible he acts like he OWNS? Abraham took a slave girl in order to procreate because Sarah was barren(or so they thought). Her name was Hagar and she “begot” Ishmael. And so Islam is born.
According to the Koran, Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael were the ancestors of the Arab nations, and of the prophet Mohammed. The Koran says that it was at Mecca that God saved Hagar and her son from death by thirst. Muslim ritual reflects the story of Hagar, and every year for thirteen centuries Muslims performing the Hajj have retraced Hagar’s steps as she desperately searched for water.
http://www.womeninthebible.net/1.2.Hagar.htm
I forgot to add, less I “portend” to be an expert. Moon and I have, at length, discussed the Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar. We just think the whole beginnning is quite fascinating. Really, from a womans view, its quite disturbing to have another woman have sex with your husband because you cannot “fulfill” your supposed wifely duty. And then poor Hagar, as a slave, being forced to have relations in order to bear a child for her master. Not a good story from my perspective.
“Amen” SA 😉
I totally agree. I actually had an ex boyfriend who said that I should, just as a measure of “insurance” get baptised, you know, just in case I really do end up in hell for being a Jew. He wasn’t being serious! Though he was a real jerk, but not for that reason!
SA,
What are your thoughts on our presence in Afganastan? Have we done what we intended to do or shoud we stay? When do we know the mission is done?
@Elena
I belief she lorded it over Sarah, didn’t she? Sorta sat around and smirked. Maybe that’s just the Christian version.
Isn’t it just like today, when the boyfriend cheats on the girlfriend, she gets mad at the other woman and the mistress gets mad at the current girlfriend. Guess who ISN’T hated? The guy!
@Elena
Thanks for a good morning chuckle, Elena!!!
You are welcome Punchak 🙂
I don’t know that there is a war on people of faith so much as there appears to be a war – to include a war being waged by or through the government – on the organizations, doctrines and creeds of faith.
Can you give examples, Blue?
@Moon-howler
That could be a long and highly emotional discussion. I just think there is a difference between the right to be a person of faith and the right of a recognized church to adhere to its principles of faith, without goverment interference or pressure.
Well, I expect that those who practice Santeria, Voodoo probably have the same gripe as do those American Indians who spoke Peyote as a regular part of their worship. Quakers are pacifists yet they have to pay for the weapons of war.
I have yet to be convinced on the contraception issue, mainly because no one is being forced to use contraception. Blue, I don’t want to make you feel like you aren’t part of the discussion because of that topic.
A “war” on faith would imply people being killed, beaten, bombed … nothing like that is going on.
Devout Christians feel under seige because they have become a minority and it’s harder and harder over time for them to see movies or TV that doesn’t offend them … and to find entertainment appropriate for their children. Also, it’s hard for them sometimes to so much as find compatible people to date. I understand why there is a frustration level.
But in the end saying there’s war against faith would be like claiming there’s a war against Santa Claus, since most adults don’t believe in him and they don’t all choose to pretend to their kids that he’s real. Faith by its definition is absurd. Me saying that is not an attack on people. It’s just the way things are. As Woody Allen says in one of his movies, we are all aware of the great universal truths (i.e. death and the absence of meaning), the difference betwen us is how we choose to cope with them.
@Rick, that makes a lot of sense, actually. However, it isn’t a war on anyone, as you said. Reduction in number isn’t a war.
I feel under seige when people of strong demonstrable faith want to practice said faith that in some way affects me or others.
For example, Let’s take a manger scene in the court yard. That doesn’t bother me one bit. However, mangers are part of my faith culture. There are people who read mangers as state religion being shoved down their throat. I am bothered that they are bothered. I am not personally bothered.
On the other hand, there are plenty of churches around who could easily display all the mangers. There are also situations that go too far the other way. Atheists having a cow over their kid singing about Rudolph need to get a life. They can explain their beliefs to their child and tell them to learn a little tolerance. Same with Christmas parties in 3rd grade.
I have no patience for Jehovah’s witnesses who want the entire school to not have a Christmas party because of their rules. No. their children need to not participate. Take them home. I feel very sorry for those children, btw.
So…. We get the President of the United States to appologize to a foreign nation for American soldiers burning a book because that’s against the ideals of that religion but when we have people of faith here in America that raise the issue that BC is against their ideals they get a stiff arm.
Wait. What?
Obama was in a no win situation. The correct plan would have been to hand the Quarans over to the Afgan governemt have them destory them. What this incident really tells us is that we have no real trustworthy alliances and Karsai is the representation of an utterly corrupt government.
However, having said that, now that people have died over burning bibles, the apology combined with a plead to stay would be fitting. I am ready to the Eff out of there and have been for some time. I hate the idea of the Taliban gaining power and the people. i.e. women primarily, being subjugated again, but its time to leave.
There’s an oil pipeline there; we won’t be leaving.
@marin, I don’t think the two situations are remotely close. How do you think the two situations have anything in common?
Rick, I used to think you were the smartest person on the dark screen. (except about immigration)
@marinm Good point. What many people don’t know (or refuse to acknowledge) is that many Catholic hospitals are self-insured,, because the institutions are so large. It’s disingenuous, at the very least. to dismiss the Church’s concerns because “they won’t have to pay for birth control” when, as insurance providers in many cases, they will.
Last night I watched the American Experience feature on the Amish. Now there is a group of people who continually have their religious beliefs compromised. They are paying for electric lines, telephone lines, paved roads, and wars that violate their religious beliefs.
We cannot accommodate every religion and its excentricities.
Emma, I would agree with you if anyone were forced to use contraception. Meanwhile, if the broad termed ‘catholics’ are functioning as an employer rather than a religion, then they need to pony up with whatever other employers have to provide. I would feel the same about those who don’t believe in blood transfusions or eating meat.
@Elena
It is time to get out of Afghanistan – has been for a long time.
Many people made fun of George Bush on the aircraft carrier with his “Mission Accomplished” sign. I think he was absolutely right, however. Our mission in Afghanistan was to annihilate al Qaeda, get rid of the terrorist training bases, and render the Taliban impotent. In Iraq, the mission was to ensure that Sadam had no weapons of mass destruction that could threaten us or our friends in the region. Letting him dangle at the end of a rope was a bonus that I was OK with.
In both cases, “Mission Accomplished.” Time to go home; not stay and vainly try to turn archaic nations into 21st century democracies. First, doing that is impossible. Second, it’s not our responsibility to try, but rather the responsibility of the people in those nations. If they are rendered incapable of threatening us (which they were, “Mission Accomplished”) it’s flat out none of our business what goes on there.
The problem was that the nation-builders such as Wolfowitz and Cheney convinced Bush to stay long past the point that we could accomplish anything of strategic or national security value for the American people.
Afghanis live lifestyles that have not been updated for several centuries. I don’t want to expend American lives and tax dollars trying to get them up to speed with the rest of the world. If al Qaeda returns and rebuilds terrorist training facilities or headquarters, we have drones to attack them. President Obama has made pretty good use of those so far. Taking out al Qaeda in Afghanistan again would not even be comparable with the challenge Israel would face trying to knock out Iranian nuclear facilities.
The Taliban is still there and large and in charge.
But I want out of there. Democracy isn’t for everyone. Obviously neither is the 21st century.
@Elena
Or worse yet, from a guy’s standpoint, the girlfriend does a “Bobbitt”!
@Moon-howler
The Taliban might have regained some power, but you, Elena, lots of other people and I are on the same wavelength that it’s time for us to go. Regardless of who is nominally in charge in Afghanistan, we have the technology to clean the place out again if they threaten us without setting one American foot on Afghan territory. As long as the Taliban understands that, and the fact that the last sight they see in this world could be a drone-fired missle going down their throat, I think we will be OK.
@Emma
I agree. In the same sense that respecting people of faith is not the same as respecting the doctrines or creeds of a faith, respecting indviduals and their insurance is not the same as respecting a religous institution. Government’s have a long history of working to minimize the the impact and power of a creed of faith while looking the other way when it comes to the individual. Catholic doctrine is clear regarding both both the act and the use of contraception. What people then do is their own business, but that should not mean that the Government should have the right to challengie the Catholic Church’s creed or the institution of the Church its provision of insurance. It does seem like a dangerous precedent. Its nothing more than another competition for power, control and moral authority.
@Need to Know
It took the Soviets 10 years to figure out they shouldn’t be there. So are we dumber than that? It would seem so. One of the budget offices, OMB I think, has calculated that Iraq will cost us $4.4 TRILLION when all is said and done. All along we have been told $1.5 TRILLION but when you add in the cost of taking care of all the veterans for decades and the support we will be continuing to provide Iraq (maybe since they are now telling us to bug off) for all the “good” things we did for them that they can’t support themselves, it is easy to believe the $4.4 TRILLION figure. The same thing in Afghanistan–NTK is right–you don’t have to step outside Kabul very far to find that nothing has changed for perhaps thousands of years. My grandson who was in Afghanistan said the villages reminded h im of the Flintstones and that’s a pretty good description.
And not to drift too far off, I read a comment someone wrote that isn’t it strange that Muslims can blow up other Muslims and their mosques and more than like destroy many Quorans in the process and it’s OK while the accidental (?) burning of some small number has cause all the outrage and the death of several Americans. The “River-Ocean” thing again?