Gov. Bob McDonnell on Wednesday signed legislation mandating that a woman undergo an ultrasound before an abortion, acting on the bill amid a scorching debate that has thrust Virginia into the national spotlight and sparked protests at the state Capitol.
The approval came despite persistent pressure from women’s rights demonstrators to spike the legislation, which in its original form could have required some women to undergo an ultrasound with a vaginal probe.
Once the details of the procedure were discussed publicly, McDonnell urged amendments that still would require an abdominal ultrasound but allow a woman to reject the more invasive procedure.
Predictably, he signed. Predictably, the women of Virginia will make sure this violation of women’s rights sticks to him like stench. Hopefully McDonnell wants to carry this invasion into his quest for higher national office.
What has not been explained is how an external ultra sound is going to determine gestational age. At any rate, McDonnell has ignored the women of Virginia.
From Planned Parenthood:
Gov. McDonnell just signed into law HB 462, mandating that women seeking abortion care in Virginia undergo and pay for an ultrasound and make two-trips to the health center. This law is nothing but an attempt to shame and place barriers for women seeking legal abortion care in Virginia.
Make no mistake about it. This new law is a ruse to make abortion more inaccessible and more expensive. McDonnell is done. Fork him.
Is abortion becoming the month after pill, and perhaps that is what legislation is trying to prevent? It’s ironic that all anyone cares about is their ‘rights’ yet if you think about it the government dictates every aspect of our lives, and every regulation brings a certain loss of freedom such that we run the risk of violating one of them every time we get out of bed. The bureaucracy established and taxpayer financed to enforce every regulation is what is consuming our country’s resources. When does it stop? In many cases you don’t even have the ‘right’ to feed your child what you want when you pack their lunch for school. The government can now control even that! How about they focus on the really important things, and they probably would except that every minor issue is raised to such astronomical heights of importance by todays social crusaders that they are forced to address it. Contraceptives anyone?
SA, I don’t think abortion is becoming the month after pill. Actually its rates are declining last time I checked. But you hit the nail on the head, Contraceptives anyone? To me, that is the answer to abortion. Avoid pregnancy.
As for reproductive rights, if we don’t defend our own rights in that department, who else will?
Here we go – talk about an unnecessary regulation – that is going to cost us all money – ie, a sonogram is a covered procedure in many insurance plans, and now, we all get to pay for anyone’s sonogram that is looking to get an abortion – not what I want to be spending my money on. Someone better call Norquist, as the Virginia Republicans just increased my tax basis (sarcasm).
Speaking of contraceptives, I’ll agree that the government can force the Catholic church to provide a service that is against their religion when we force Muslim schools to serve ham as part of their dietary requirements. Seems that once the government crosses that line, then everything is open to consideration. So, be careful what you wish for!
Again, SA, when that church is functioning in some other capacity than a place of worship, do the same standards apply?
No one is asking the Catholics to provide a service. They are asking them to bring their health insurance up to standard.
Mormons were forced to give up part of their religious beliefs to become part of this country. Obviously religious beliefs are of little importance if you are a minority religion. I guess that is different though. (ahem–clearing throat)
SA,
What a completey irrelevant comparison, that surprises me coming from you. Contraception is health care, it isn’t about sex, its about womens health. The sooner we can direct the conversation to that fact, the sooner we can be done arguing the merits of a womans right to health care.
This ultrasound bill is going to take the steam out of the republican mantra that government should not be in the business of legislating health care, i.e. Affordable Health Care Act. I would acutally suggest its the REPUBLICANS that should be careful about getting what they wish for!
Again there are a lot of unanswered questions about this bill. Who keeps records? The docs? Do they submit the records to any state agency? If so, does that violate federal regulations (HIPAA)? If the sonogram is supposed to be a part of the woman’s record, which record? The abortion provider’s? The state’s? Her GP’s?
Censored – the sonogram results are to be placed in the Medical Record of the clinic where the procedure is performed – never to be seen again (or used for any medical purpose).
There won’t be many clinics left in Virginia. Remember, they all have to be little hospitals.
This law is unconstitutional, for women but also for doctors and physicians who are now required to perform the service, even if their patients don’t want it.
Politically, this was a very bad move for Virginia Republicans and they’re going to pay for it the next few election cycles. McDonnell can kiss his VP hopes goodbye.
Starry,
Unconstitutional under what section?
And, US Const or VA Const?
Can a State regulate that a doctor be required to have a license to practice medicine? How about the Federales?
I would argue that the State can but the Federales can’t.. But would like to hear your point of view.
The state has no right to compel a physician to perform medically unnecessary procedures. It violates free speech of both doctors and their patients.
A Texas judge has already declared it so:
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Judge-stays-sonogram-law-2148085.php
I am going to wade in on the constitutionality of the probe. The right to abortion is established law and the provisions were outlined by Justice Blackmum. Since then various cases have continued to whittle away at Roe v. Wade. Roe makes no mention of ultra sound or a lot of the other road blocks that have been thrown up.
The best way to end abortion is to make sure that everyone has contraception and knows how to use it..whatever the choice is.
“The state has no right to compel a physician to perform medically unnecessary procedures. It violates free speech of both doctors and their patients.”@Starryflights
Great! So I assume you also feel that forcing a physician to perform any other kind of procedure against their conscience would be just as illegal–i.e. abortions? ‘Cause I would think that would be a violation of that doctor (or nurse’s) free speech right, too. I’m glad we’re in agreement here.
@Emma, I don’t think doctors or nurses should have to perform abortions if they have moral opposition or if they are uncomfortable about it.
On the other hand, I don’t give that pass to pharmacists who refuse to dispense birth control pills. Those people should go work elsewhere. That is totally different.
@Starry, I don’t think that’s accurate. Did you review http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204124204577152992567818170.html ?
Mind you I’m no fan of the law but I do think that the States and not the Federales are within their powers to draft these laws.
Free Speech? You talk outta some funny holes!!
How about “unreasonable search and seizures”? These probes didn’t seem to bother anyone when it was minimum-wage TSA-agents doing it!!
Were TSA agents inserting trans-vaginal probes? Please provide documentation.
I don’t see how anyone can declare the national health care law unconstitutional, but this is okay? That is downright hypocritical.
Viagra Would Need Therapist OK in Ohio Bill
Bloomberg.com
By Mark Niquette – Mar 7, 2012If women considering abortions must face government-mandated examinations, it’s only fair that men who want drugs such as Viagra to treat impotence get the same treatment, an Ohio lawmaker says.
State Senator Nina Turner, a Cleveland Democrat, has introduced a bill to require that physicians take specific actions before prescribing such drugs, including giving a cardiac stress test and making a referral to a sex therapist for confirmation that “the patient’s symptoms are not solely attributable to one or more psychological conditions.”
“We want to make sure that men, vulnerable, fragile men, who are not capable of making decisions for themselves, understand all of the side effects and the implications of these types of drugs,” Turner said in a telephone interview.
http://ninaturner.org/iNAMiX/content/viagra-would-need-therapist-ok-ohio-bill
Haha, I like that. Goose, gander…
Too funny and not all that far-fetched.
Been through airport security lately?
Not recently. I have quit traveling as much, Pokie. Too big of a pain in the tail. You didn’t answer my question. What is the most invasive thing done to you? Transvaginal probe? Why should I compare a trip to the airport to an abortion? Can’t I dislike each situation without comparing them?
“Haha, I like that. Goose, gander…”
Except that sometimes the gander has suffered prostate cancer and debilitating surgery. How compassionate of you, Starry.
Emma, bite me. This time you snarked at the wrong person. What in the hell are you talking about?
No one laughed harder at Starry’s post than my husband who has been going through treatment for prostate cancer for the past several months. He recently finished his radiation about 2 weeks ago. It was a very long process. It didn’t strip him of his sense of humor or ability to see the gender inequity being pointed out. There are all sorts of risks associated with viagra use. There aren’t road blocks erected every time men need a viagra prescription. Pardon the pun.
Real compassionate of you, Emma.
Wow, I didn’t realize Starry was so untouchable. My bad.
“Real compassionate of you, Emma.”
What???
Is something wrong with the water system? Did you or did you not say ‘Real compassionate of you Starry?’
I was the one who laughed, not Starry. The deflections aren’t too becoming. You put your foot in it. In trying to take a swipe at Starry, you actually nailed me. Just letting you know that this family has every right to discuss prostate cancer without everyone acting like they are picking up chicken crap with their fingers. No guilt here.
You have to look at it like this: you’re not allowed to pick on the “special” kids.
Starry isn’t special. I am. I was the one laughing. DOH @ you.
Just go with it. Double standard.
@marinm I’m at a loss as to how my response to Starry was interpreted as an attack on Moon’s husband. That’s an incredible stretch.
@Emma, I was the one laughing about what Starry said. Its all a matter of juxtaposition. I read comments behind the scenes and it appears that since I was laughing at Starry, it was just as much at me as it was with him. If Mr. Howler can laugh, anyone can. 45 radiation treatments gives you that right. I also didn’t take it as an attack on my husband, nor did he. More as a shame on you that just didn’t work.
@Emma
I hear ya especially as her husband took Starry’s shot as funny… All people are equal, some are more equal than others.
Are you jealous of Starry? I can promise you we don’t know him. Sorry you can’t connect here. You also didn’t understand Sen. Howell’s bill either. Most people got it right off the bat. Its the same thing.
@Moon-howler
Jealous of Starry? No. Simply pointing out that the rules are applied differently based on the person.
But this is your home. It’s your right. Just makes civil discourse difficult because we don’t know what we’ll be called out for but we do know he won’t.
marin, Starry was called out. (Real compassionate, Starry) Did you miss that point? Why is it ok for Emma to call Starry out and me not to respond?
The discourse was very civil, if you consider ‘bite me’ part of civility. I can go take that down if it makes it more civil.
You have a blind spot there. You all dished it out, then played the victim when I rose up over no compassion for prostate cancer.
I think the bottom line is, the Nina woman Starry quoted was pointing out that women are very vulnerable and there is simply no male equivalent, so Nina manufactured a comparable.
Where was the compassion for women undergoing a very needy time in their lives? They don’t need to undergo further humilitation by having to have sonagrams and vaginal probes. There is nothing mandated by the state that implies that men are too stupid or immature to make their own medical decisions or morally appropriate decisions.
“I think the bottom line is, the Nina woman Starry quoted was pointing out that women are very vulnerable and there is simply no male equivalent, so Nina manufactured a comparable.”
And this is acceptable? To manufacture a comparable to simply drive home a point? The moral high ground is lost when the other side starts to themselves meddle in healthcare decisions especially ones that may take away resources from a person like Cho or battered women. Because last I checked our mental healthcare system didn’t need MORE (friviolous)clients.
BTW, for some jobs a referral to a mental healthcare specialist is either career limiting or terminating. And in some states it could cost you access to your firearms.
Thats a real good reason to not have to have a referral for that kind of treatment. It should still be part of your health care though.
Let me try to understand your rage….I laugh at Starry over some woman legislators trying to find a comparable to the invasion a woman is going to suffer during an abortion. All of a sudden Starry and I are both the bad guys, even though Emma drags out prostate cancer as a reason why Starry and I are bad people.
Do you think that the women legislators are serious or doyou think maybe they are tryinmg to drive a point home? guess which I think.
@marin
“Do you think that the women legislators are serious or doyou think maybe they are tryinmg to drive a point home? guess which I think.”
I think they are serious. Why joke about something like that? Government has the power to regulate healthcare so a State Senator saying that her state ought to make a change is – to me – something that should be taken very seriously.
It also means that she AGREES with her republican friends that womens healthcare CAN be regulated by the state.
It is purely political hyberbole, marin. They don’t really think that. They are mocking the existing bills. Geez.
All health care is regulated. News flash. It always has been. What do you think quaranteening is? you know, when the people with horribly infectious diseases are kept away from the rest of us. How about when medicine that kills us is taken off the market. Think that is a bad idea? How about the state mandating that doctors pass a medical exam?
Lets for a moment, albeit briefly, reflect upon what Moonhowler has shared. What I find surprising is that not one person on this blog, so intent on proving why a mandated unnesseary medical procedure is warranted, responded to what was a VERY personal medical event in Moohhowlers life. No, “sorry to hear that, hope Mr. Howler is doing better”……etc etc.
Geez, not one of you even had the common courtesy to acknowledge what had been shared.
So, for a moment, shall we all remember that behind the computer screen is a real person.
This is just moving into the realm of aburdity. Clearly, the legislators are attempting to draw a comparison of unnessesary government intrusion into private citizens health care decisions with their doctors. As unnecessary as a required ultrasound, so too is a mandated trip to the sex therapist.
I would add, that women who have chosen to have an abortion do not do it lightly or happily. Ever seen a waiting room in a clinic as women wait for their name to be called? Its silent. You could hear a pin drop. As cruel as forcing men to see a sex therapist is EXACLTY how I view these government requirements that make legal abortion even MORE difficult to attain.
It is absurd and I am sorry I tried to reason with people. Actually I am even sorrier I mentioned personal information on the blog. It was against my better judgement and it is obvious no one gives a rat’s ass anyway.
Wow, with #44 and 46, two masterful strokes, the two of you have elevated deflection to a high art form! I counter Starry’s ridicule with this: “Except that sometimes the gander has suffered prostate cancer and debilitating surgery. How compassionate of you, Starry.” And suddenly there is hand-wringing about how hard-hearted and uncaring we are, and how no one cares about Mr. Howler. Amazing!
You have overlooked, once again, that I was the one who laughed at Starry.
Why is that same compassion over prostate cancer and surgery not extended to people who have to have unnecessary medical procedures to have an abortion? That is the real point. I have no other option than to assume they aren’t deserving of compassion.
I think it is dead wrong to require unnecessary medical procedures or consultations when they aren’t needed. If it takes a female legislator introducing an absurd bill to drive that point home, so be it. I can;’t think of any male issues that require the little man to undergo panels of female opinion to see if he is entitled to the procedure or if he really knows what he is doing.
I’ll tell Mr. Howler not to laugh the next time.
Emma, I personally don’t expect you to really care one way or the other. but in a civilized world, people generally acknowledge serious illness whether they mean it or not.
No one even acknowledged what I said other than to complain that Starry got special priviledges.
Maybe we are being too subtle Moon. Is there a way to make our point more clear?
Elena, you talked me down from that on the phone…… 😈
The problem is the way that you used that information, Moon. It was used to needlessly shame me and the others here, as if we were supposed to know that about your family, and as if my post was even directed at you in the first place. Of course I care when anyone is sick like that–that’s kind of what I was communicating in #26. Your blog, your rules, your interpretations.
You were using that same information to shame Starry, like he was a 2 headed uncompassionate monster. I had been the one laughing and so had Mr. H. That’s probably why to not throw out information like that. You never know who has been through what.
No, I didn’t throw it out to shame you. I threw it out to point out that my family could laugh with Starry if we wanted and it had nothing to do with compassion. Everyone who uses Viagra hasn’t had prostate cancer, surgery, or anything else debilitating.
For the record, my husband didn’t have surgery either, lest I left that impression.
“Lets for a moment, albeit briefly, reflect upon what Moonhowler has shared.”
TBH in the context of this thread acknowledging it would’ve been interpreted as negative as it wasn’t even close to what Emma was talking about which was that there are people who need that medicine that shouldn’t be subjected to the additional procedure because they’ve already suffered. Even the sonogram law makes that type of concession by waiving women who were raped or victims of incest.
“It is purely political hyberbole, marin. They don’t really think that. They are mocking the existing bills. Geez.”
To me that’s sorta like a police officer pointing a gun at someone for having a broken taillight and then saying, “Just kidding…” The state has the power to pull that trigger and her ‘hyperbole’ is akin to her brandishing and waving around a gun (because she can).
“All health care is regulated.”
And this is simply a new regulation. Thank you for agreeing with us and supporting this legislation.
@marin, think what it must feel like to have to go for an abortion in Texas. I guess the women there agree.
You and I will both never go in for an abortion, marin. We might both feel differently weren’t confident of that.
@marin,
It seems to me that what you suggest is for people just to roll over and play dead if social conservatives determine that is what you will do. the only reason to get up and fight back is if your 1A rights are tampered with.
I disagree with that line of thought.
These laws are NOT about confirming gestational age, they are about ensuring that women have to go through as many shaming obstacles as possible in order to obtain a legal abortion. I will have to check in TX, but the law in VA states the doctor must explain what is being seen on the screen. Do these people elieve that woman are dolts? Unable to understand that they are terminating a pregnancy? Do they believe that woman are simply not capable of understanding that an abortion entails pregnancy, which entails a fetus?
@Moon-howler
“It seems to me that what you suggest is for people just to roll over and play dead if social conservatives determine that is what you will do.”
Negative. You have a 1A right to seek redress. However, I think ultimately you will fail as this falls within the power of each state (to regulate healthcare/medicine).
I’ll reiterate that I don’t agree with these laws but I don’t think they’re illegal or unconstitutional. You can have really really really bad laws that are constitutional.
“Do they believe that woman are simply not capable of understanding that an abortion entails pregnancy, which entails a fetus?”
Elena, you can almost argue that these laws are the ultimate in truth in advertising type laws. Think of a cigarette box. The federales mandate a warning label on the box indicating use of the product may cause death. They’ve even moved to have pictures on the cartons. You can argue this is similar.
Marinm,
cigarette smoking MAY cause cancer while having an abortion % of the time WILL result in an aborted fetus.
@Elena
I think you drove home my point better than I could have. Thank you.