This story is just tragic. An unarmed kid with a cell phone and a bag of candy shouldn’t have to die. It sure sounds like the “Stand your Ground” law is being stretched to the limit. This case is why I simply don’t think everyone has a right to have a firearm. How totally irresponsible.
How will the community react to this news? I couldn’t believe Zimmerman was from our area. Frankly, I would be worried too if this thug were following me, especially if I had an inkling he was armed.
Read more at INsidenova.com.
The City of Manassas owns this one, not PWC! I had to clarify this point with some smarty pants on insidenova’s FB wall.
I first heard of this story on the Fox Report with Shepard Smith. I don’t understand why this dude has NOT been picked up and arrested. He clearly did NOT follow the orders of the 911 dispatcher. What an idiot and killer to boot.
@Laf,
I instantly thought about that man who buried the child alive. How could that have happened. Florida is just wayward about criminal justice.
The fact that he was turned lose is inexcusable. I believe people have ever right to defend themselves against criminals but not kids carrying skittles, an ice tea and a cell phone.
Can one claim self defense, when you are the aggressor following the kid around?
On the subject of the “Stand your Ground” law from the New York Times:
It seems like extremes cause laws like this to crop up. I remember the one in NY where the guy was jumped by thugs, shot them and was prosecuted for murder. Now “Stand your ground.” Why do people have an obligation to remove themselves from the situation? How about just a normal reaction?
Meanwhile, this Zimmerman clown seems extremely out of bounds. It makes zero sense that he should be walking around free and an unarmed young man is 6 feet under. Where is the common sense?
If this is Florida’s law, then anyone is in danger. Maybe laws spring up like this one because there are so many old folks?
I don’t want people to think this is how Neighborhood Watch works, either. Big Dog reminded me that Chris Tutko, former Manassas City Police Chief, now leads the national Neighborhood Watch program as the National Sheriff’s Association’s Director of Neighborhood Watch. He’s calling this a case study of what not to do.
http://www.insideedition.com/news/7865/more-insight-into-the-neighborhood-watch-member-that-shot-and-killed-an-unarmed-teen.aspx
I remember Chief Tutko fondly. He was very much the gentleman. Thanks, Cindy, for reminding everyone that this Zimmerman guy is a rogue and outlier. He shouldn’t tarnish an excellent program any more than we should let a rogue cop or teacher tarnish the thousands to do the best job they can every single day.
The funny part is people keep bringing up the “stand your ground” law in Florida in association with this case. The shooter was obviously not “standing his ground”, even with the paltry amount of detail that is out there to read on this. It’s so obvious that I’m not sure what this case even has to do with Florida’s “stand your ground” law. That being said, I do readily admit that maybe as many as 50% of people who regularly carry a firearm (legally or not) have precious little understanding of the legalities of self-defense. Zimmerman is finished, either criminally or civilly.
He needs to be finished. This case is horrible. It sounds like a bad bad wanna be.
Actually, I would bet a substantial amount of money that precious few lawyers actually understand self-defense law. I’d like to meet the lawyer who said to this guy “sure I’ll defend you with the stand-your-ground defense!”
I think gun control groups are seizing on this incident to point and say, “See we told you so!”
This is not an issue of if a stand your ground law is right or appropriate (btw, Virginia is the same). Zimmerman didn’t stand his ground he persued and confronted.
Between you, me and the wall I think he’s probably a wannabe cop and thought he would take the law into his own hands.
FWIW here is a blurb from VCDL on Virginia’s law.. If Florida is like Virginia I’m pretty sure this guy is going to have a few friends in the state penn.
A LOOK AT CURRENT SELF-DEFENSE COMMON LAW IN VIRGINIA (IMPORTANT INFORMATION)
Virginia currently has excellent protections for those involved in the use of force for self-defense. Our protections are much broader than the “Castle Doctrines” that many states have. True “Castle Doctrine” bills provide protection only in a person’s home, while Virginia common law provides protections everywhere you might be – at home, in the yard, at work, at the store, in church, etc. Some states desperately needed “Castle Doctrine” laws, as their existing laws were horrible on self-defense. Many required a person to retreat EVEN IN THEIR OWN HOME! Not true in Virginia.
Virginia is a “stand-your-ground” state. That means AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT PART OF “THE PROBLEM” and are innocent, you can stand your ground and use force to defend yourself wherever you may be. Deadly force is only allowed if you are under IMMEDIATE threat and you reasonably fear that you, or another innocent party, will be killed or be grievously injured. The death of an attacker caused by use of such deadly force is considered “justifiable homicide.” Note that you don’t actually have to be in a deadly situation, but only have a REASONABLE FEAR that you are in such a situation, to be justified in the use of deadly force. For example, if someone tries to rob you with a toy gun and you don’t know it’s a toy gun, you would be justified in responding with deadly force since you would reasonably fear that your life was in immediate danger.
If you are part of “the problem,” say by making an obscene gesture or yelling a threat at someone, then, if attacked, you MUST RETREAT. The retreat must be as far as you can reasonably go and you must indicate that you give up the fight. Then, and only then, if the attacker persists, can you use force against them. If they are trying to kill you or grievously injure you, and they die because of your use of deadly force, it is considered “excusable homicide,” a lower standard than “justifiable homicide.” Moral to the story: don’t give up your right to stand-your-ground by being part of the problem – ever.
The reason that a person who is part of the problem is required to retreat is to avoid someone committing murder under the guise of self-defense. Otherwise, a murderer could intentionally badger a victim to the point that the victim attacks out of sheer anger or frustration. At that point the murderer, standing his ground, could use that attack as an excuse to kill the victim “in self-defense,” getting away with murder legally. Not good, not acceptable, and not legal.
Would common law or the “Castle Doctrine” bills GUARANTEE that a person legally defending themselves could NOT be charged with murder or sued civilly NO. If the police and/or the Commonwealth Attorney have reason to believe, rightly or wrongly, that you committed a murder instead of true self-defense, you are going to be arrested and charged. Period. As far as a civil suit, you can be sued for anything and nothing can stop that either. However, common law (and the wording in the Castle Doctrine bills) provide a defense. However, the common law provides the same defense wherever you may
be, while the “Castle Doctrine” would only apply inside your dwelling.
@marin
The Virginia law sounds like it is balanced. The Florida law is new and perhaps has a few glitches in it that allow someone like Zimmerman to get by with murder. On the other hand, why hasn’t someone stepped in?
The kid was killed Feb. 26. He was left with the medical examiner for 3 days. No one picked up his cell phone for 3 days, according to news this morning. No one tried to find his parents. Maybe Sanford is just a really sh*tty place to live. I expect it isn’t sh*tty for just black folks. It sounds like a horrible place to raise kids.
I would guess there are Stand your Ground laws and then there are Stand Your Ground Laws. From what I have read the cops (state and local) in Florida strongly objected to the law. It might be very different from Virginia’s.
Good summary, thanks Marinm. I didn’t know what the laws are in Virginia.
Seems to me Zimmerman was the aggressor. He followed and confronted the teenager, despite being told by the dispatcher that his actions weren’t necessary; in other words back off and wait for the police to arrive. Wouldn’t the kid have been justified in killing Zimmerman under the “stand your ground” law if he had had the wherewithal to do so? Skittles, a cell phone and iced tea don’t make for very deadly weapons of aggression or defense.
The best course of action is always to call the police if you suspect trouble and wait for them to arrive if there is no immediate threat to you. I don’t see how Zimmerman could have seen an immediate threat to himself given that he was doing the pursuing.
“Seems to me Zimmerman was the aggressor.”
Given the little information that is known I think so to. I mean its hard to justify following someone at night that you’ve already called the police on and getting into melee range with them.
I think also you see a lot of misunderstanding in the press about stand your ground laws. As pointed out – the law is basically the same as Virginia. The narritive being drawn by the press and anti-gun groups is that these laws encourage murder. I don’t agree with that and homicide rates don’t reflect that.
They’ll probably get him on manslaughter but it’ll take a while and a case needs to be built.
You would expect the same review when a police officer shoots and injures/kills an unarmed citizen.
IF and only IF they ever arrest him. Did you read that line of bull his father released?
@marin
Have you actually seen the Florida law? Would you post both of them side by side ? (VA and Florida)
Trayvon looked so much like his mother. I am watching Al Sharpton talking to the parents and the attorney. I don’t think Al Sharpton always does the right thing. In this case, he is 100% right.
This is the most egregious situation I have heard of in a long time. Sanford, Forida needs to fix this real quickly. Zimmerman needs to be arrested and charged with murder. No Stand your Ground law gives anyone the right to kill an innocent person.
I don’t see how the parents are holding up through this interview. The father is remarkable.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html
Pay special attention to 776.441
Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
“Zimmerman needs to be arrested and charged with murder.”
I think the investigation needs to occur first and then if they have enough charge him with a crime.
“No Stand your Ground law gives anyone the right to kill an innocent person.”
You are correct. That’s why the law isn’t really a factor here. Killing an innocent person is a crime. That he invokes the law to try and shield himself is just a legal defense…like blaming twinkies…… If you check the URL it doesn’t say anything about killing innocent people.
It sounds like it was ‘investigated’ if you want to call it that. Local law enforcement failed. Either the state or the Feds need to come in.
He needs to be off the streets, not carrying a weapon, (probably for his own protection at this point), arrested, charged, and stand trial. If he is innocent, the truth will come out.
Has anyone come out anywhere and said they knew this guy?
I say hang him now. We don’t need no stinking trial, I mean he was following a young black man in a hoodie at night in a gated community – who my guess is refused to identify himself and what he was doing in the neighborhood to a neighborhood watch volunteer, who did in fact call police. Followed him – hell , No, I bet he marched right up to him and just shot him down — don’t you think? What else do we need to know. I mean its clear that the local police are incompetent- the fact that he has not been arrested and the rally in NYC proves that.
We may never know what really happened here, but unless Zimmerman can be shown to be a member of some larger hate group, folks need to step back and put themselves in his shoes. I want to know more about the crime rate in the area that would result in a line about them always getting away and for a neighborhood watch volunteer to want to be armed. I take my dogs and have been glad for their presence. I understand the parents reaction, but not that of other adults for the lynching.
Zimmerman said on the 911 call “effin coons”. I think we can stop guessing to his frame of mind before he shot this teeange boy.
Carrying a soda and skittles is not aggressive behavior!
@Elena
You’re right – generally. But, of course we don’t know what happened. The police are in a bad position. How do you prosecute someone for murder when the victim is dead, there are no witnesses, the shooter claims self defense and you have very poor audio phone calls to emergency dispatchers.
The burden of proof is on the state and Zimmerman is innocent until he’s proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. That’s a high metric for this… Even if as Elena points out he was the most racist biggot ever. Being a horrible person doesn’t mean a person is a murderer.
Now, I personally Thursday-morning quarterback think the shooting was dirty but I don’t think the state can prove it.
@Blue
Blue, I don’t think anyone has called for lynching Zimmerman. I do think he should be arrested, if nothing else, for his own good. I can listen to tapes and I know what I heard. There is probable cause to arrest him. He stalked a kid. He shot a kid. He killed a kid. The kid was unarmed.
That is not what neighborhood watch is all about. We don’t even know that he was part of an official neighborhood watch, do we? I think it is very vague why he was out there in the first place.
Obviously there are black people living in the gated community. Why wouldn’t there be a black kid walking around in a hoodie? I think its irrelevant about hate crime. An unarmed kid, described as an ‘effen coon’ was shot and killed by someone else who was not law enforcement. No charges have been made. No arrests have been made. This is not acceptable in America in 2012.
@marinm
There are witnesses and some of them called the police.
We can’t live in a vigilante world.
I think they will prove their case…now. They are in the Norden bombsights on this one. I am not sure this Zimmerman could get a fair trial in the state of Florida.
Yep, that’s what it sounded like to me! That ought to throw lighter fluid on the fire! I gotta tell ya’ Zimmerman doesn’t have a leg to stand on, legally…..except he hasn’t been arrested? What’s going on in Florida these days?
How would you like to be this dude Zimmerman’s next-door neighbor?
Oh dear Lord! NO
@Pokie
I would expect someone to come burn my house down thinking it was his. I saw a picture of his Manassas house on TV last night. Very nice home. Mr. Howler heard he was an alter boy at All Saints. It doesn’t seem like he was a bad sort when he was here at all. Basically a nice kid.
Who knows what happened along the way. It really sounds like he doesn’t have a leg to stand on. The whole thing makes me sick. I feel so horrible for those parents. They could be any one of us. That’s the scary part.
I do think he should be arrested, if nothing else, for his own good.
That’s pretty scary. We’re still in America, right?
“I can listen to tapes and I know what I heard.”
What you hear and what I hear may be different. That’s why eye witness testimony sucks. As a workmate once told me, he liked Denzel Washington in “I, Robot”
“There is probable cause to arrest him.”
I think there is suspicion that a crime may have occured but I don’t think it’s reached a point yet where probable cause exists.
“An unarmed kid, described as an ‘effen coon’ was shot and killed by someone else who was not law enforcement. No charges have been made. No arrests have been made. This is not acceptable in America in 2012.”
I know you didn’t mean it this way but it sounded like you said if it WAS done by law enforcement then it’d be ok. I have no issue with an investigation occuring but I don’t see this turning out the way most people want it to.
It’ll be an interesting case to watch and see what happens…. I do think that no one will be satisfied with the outcome…especially the family.
Welcome to the official kick-off of the 2012 protest season! This is a hell of a way to get it going, right? This guy Zimmerman is soooooo screwed.
Al Sharpton’s mother passed away yesterday morning but he kept his promise to be in Sanford, Florida. He said he mother would have wanted him to be there. He said she always told him if he didn’t stand for something, he would fall for anything.
Those might just be real good words to live by, Mrs. Sharpton.
@marinm
Marin, yes, in America people get riled up and act like vigilantes. Sorry to break it to you. Thus the ‘for his own good’ remark. Millions of people are furious over this. Somewhere one of those million might take things to extreme.
There are lots of witnesses out there. I am well aware that witnesses aren’t often the reliable resource. However, do you think the person who just killed someone is more reliable? There is plenty of reason to arrest Zimmeran. The fact that he followed this kid and the kid ended up dead is enough reason right there. Surely you heard him admit that he was following him?
Millions of people heard what I heard.
I really do not agree with you about a lot of this. I believe there is middle ground.
It is important to note that probably just as many white people and hispanics are shocked and outraged over the killing of Trayvon Martin as black . I am not sure this is a racially motivated issue. It could very well just be some toad on a power trip and any kid could be the victim.
It is truly a false sense of security to think that just minority kids are at risk of this kind of senseless violence. Minority kids are more at risk but that doesn’t mean non-minority kids are safe.
The Washington Post has a very interesting article to locals about who George Zimmerman really is. His mother, Gladys, was a court interpretter locally. His father is retired military. They lived here around 20 years. The kids went to All Saints until high school. They were supposedly very polite and didn’t really play with neighborhood kids.
I should stop calling him a toad. He is someone’s child also. I am sure they are in pain also.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/who-is-george-zimmerman/2012/03/22/gIQAkXdbUS_story_1.html
Interesting take from NPR.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/03/23/149206896/trayvon-martin-was-typical-teen-george-zimmerman-is-hard-to-categorize
“However, do you think the person who just killed someone is more reliable?”
We have to look at the totality of evidence present and then make a judgment.
” There is plenty of reason to arrest Zimmeran.”
I think that’s a question for a grand jury to decide. Obviously at this moment there is insufficient information in the public domain to have an arrest warrant signed.
The fact that he followed this kid and the kid ended up dead is enough reason right there. Surely you heard him admit that he was following him?
Based on the information provided it appears he did follow him. But, following a person isn’t cause for an arrest on the charge of murder. I think he’ll have plenty to explain if the grand jury hands down an indictment.
I think this case needs to be handled in a very sensitive way. Again, no one will be satisfied with what the outcome will be.
Moon said from the article
“The Washington Post has a very interesting article to locals about who George Zimmerman really is. His mother, Gladys, was a court interpretter locally.”
Umm, excuse me..She was a hell of lot more than an interpter! She certainly wasn’t interperting when she married Mr. Lafayette and I at the top of the old courthouse. 🙄
Here’s a little recent local history lesson. Prince William County no longer performs civil ceremonies in the courthouse. They got thrown out the window when Ms. McQuigg came to rule to the roost and about the time Gladys retired.
@Laf
The plot sure is thickening. I think Zimmerman is one of those wanna-be’s that I have seen over the years. The worst case of that I have ever seen was a husband and wife team with dogs who kept trying to get hired by town house communities. Everyone thought they were a loose cannon. I have often wondered what happened to those 2.
What a shame for both families. I don’t see the Zimmerman race card as being very genuine.
Mr. Howler brought up a good point….how often this happens right up the road for us.