Allow me to share my perspective living in this County. On a regular basis, I find myself having to explain I am not a Christian and it is always very uncomfortable.
As I have shared in previous posts, having suddenly felt as though I was being “evangelized”, I made the decision to leave my hairdresser because the owner of Tranquility chose to spread her faith in her Salon, Tranquility Day Spa.
Here is a story I did not share. My kids had picked raspberries on our property and sold them on the corner of our property. Our street intersects a main road. A very nice woman stopped and wanted to buy some berries. I shared that a portion of the money the kids raised would go to the Wounded Warrior Project. This very nice woman replied how wonderful it was that the kids we donating a portion of their hard earned money to a charity.
She then continued on to share her church, had recently done a fundraiser for Wounded Warrior also. I told her I thought that was fantastic. The conversation should have stopped there in my opinion. It didn’t. Let me interject, at this point in the story, that I always wear my Star of David. In this county, I almost feel like I have to in order to deflect the religious overtures I feel on a regular basis. Anyway, I digress.
She follows up by inviting me to her church, to which I very nicely reply. ” I am Jewish”. Now, the conversation REALLY should be over now. Instead, she pushes on. “Well, we have lots of Jewish families at our Church”. NO, NO you don’t. If you belong to [Name Deleted] Christian Church you are NOT Jewish. Period. End of Story. Once again, remaining very nice I respond “I am the real kind of Jew, the kind that goes to Temple”. She is still smiling at me, trying to figure out how she can convince me to turn towards Jesus. At some point, my 6 year old daughter speaks up and says “yes, I am Jewish too”. I say “thank you” and tell her I hope she enjoys the fresh raspberries and freshly made lemonade with my biggest smile, hiding my frustration and, to be honest, my anger.
At the McCoart building, attending the meeting to fight the Rural Crescent intrusion, once again, I am surrounded by the explicit action of my Christian “neighbors” that makes those who do NOT share their faith feel uncomfortable. The invocation, which I find completely unnessesary, at the BOCS meeting began with a prayer. What is the first action Christians do when they pray, they bow their heads. Jews honor G-d in special prayers by standing. Do you know what else we don’t do? We don’t call G-d, Father. That is strictly a Christian term.
So, here I am, in full chamber full of people, heads bowed, with only few like myself, standing, looking straight forward. Want to know what it feels like to stick out like a sore thumb? Welcome to my world.
I wonder, just for a moment, how all those people would have felt if someone who worshiped Islam had come in and asked everyone honor Allah in their prayer.
I am insulted by this farce of praying before decisions are made by our BOCS. For me, I am further insulted just knowing the duplicitous nature of politics and the absence of ethics and morals that occurs in our county government by many of our elected officials.
The BOCS should adopt the School Board policy that they themselves don’t follow and go with moment of silents and the Pledge. It’s about time that the county recognize and adapt to the fact that they are no longer a monolithic community. Everyone should feel welcome engaging their government, whether they are addressing Prince William County School Board or county government.
@Moon-howler
I should have added to my above comment that not only did lots of people used to believe the Earth is flat, lots of people also used to believe the Earth was the center of the Universe. Hmmm. Not only did they think that but they also considered any other thinking to be heresy, an afront to G-d, and anyone saying different, or even suspected of thinking different, was killed, (read “murdered”), usually in the least humane of manners. Who would do such things based on pure ignorance? Adherents to religious dogma.
The obnoxiousness of people who today feel compelled to prosletyze is just a milder form of the same problem. I don’t see this as innocently “spreading the good news”. I see it as the prelude to much worse things. So, my message to those who feel that they have to “spread the word” or hope for a Saul like conversion is this: If someone wants to know your thinking on theology, they will probably ask you for it. If they don’t ask, it is highly likely that your raising the subject is just plain rude.
I feel like this has , mostly, been a good “conversation”. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts and feelings.
@ Kelly,
If people want to take a moment to pray on their own, prior to the meeting, in a space not necessarily where EVERYONE congregates, I have no problem with that. Because I respect other peoples beliefs, I have no interest in denying them their right to pray, however, they should be JUST as respectful of people who don’t share their ideology.
Blue Moon,
The Jewish Congregation I belong to have met in an Episcopal Church in Warrenton for over a decade. We have a lovely relationship with them. Never, not once, has anyone ever felt the need to convert us, that would simply be unacceptable.
My Bubbie (jewish grandma)has a cousin Izzy who was the only member in his immediate family to survive the Holocaust. My grandmother’s family was from Poland. The very thought someone of another faith, would suggest he needed to be “saved” is really unfathomable to me.
@BlueMoon
Yes, the child believes the parent is rude, stupid and mean but it doesn’t mean the medicine doesn’t work.
@Elena
The BOCS has Rabbis and Imams offer invocations too. It seems to me only agnostics or atheists would have an issue but not people of faith.
Alanna,
Only one time in all the years that I have been to a BOCS meeting has there been a rabbi, in fact, she spoke in very secular terms about morals and ethics, no hebrew prayers. She has gave the invocaton during the whole immigration fiasco and did a great job of having meaning to her words regarding how we treat our fellow human being.
I am still not sure what to say regarding your comment that you hope people will continue to convert me from Judiasm. I would never try to change you from your faith, I respect how strongly you feel about it. In fact, you have NEVER suggested I be anything but who I am. Do you really believe that I need the “medicine” of Christ? Do you believe that the dark screen lord has a place in some great afterlife while I would be condemed to burn?
I firmly believe what led me to get involved to fight the hate that I saw growing in this county against Latino’s stems from my upbringing about how critical it is, that when you see hate growing, you are morally required to stand up against it. “Never Again” is what was drummed into my head.
also, does my Bubbies cousin get sent to hell for surviving Auchwitz and remaining a Jew?
If God is really all things as I have been taught, He must be what Christians, Jews, Muslims, everyone thinks He is and more besides. I believe that intolerence is the real Devil here. I feel like a second class citizen all the time. Like Moon-howler, I was taught by example and precept that religion is very personal and to be respected as such. Those who paraded it and proselytized were suspect as con artists and bunk shooters who inappropriately somehow sought gain in ego or money or some other way by exposing a personal issue to the outside world. Today, I am often embarrassed to let anyone know that I have a rather strong faith because I fear that they will think I am one of those people who try to convert and who push all sorts of cruel and intolerant agendas in the name of Christianity. I don’t think any religion or lack thereof should be force fed, That isn’t good for the human spirit. I believe the human spirit grows in a place that is gentle and understanding. Like any being limited by human understanding, I don’t know what God thinks or wants, but I hope that is it.
Pushy Christians believe that they experience the true God’s love and they find that this experience is warm and fulfilling. They wish to share that good feeling with their fellow man. If I learned the secret of never feeling irrational fear or emptiness, I would want to also share that with my neighbors, friends and family. Now if I try to share my secret with Elena, and she tells me that she does not experience fear or hunger already, then I would congratulate her, maybe share notes and move on to someone who is still fearful and hungry. The problem is, that most people already know this secret via their own belief systems. When I find this out I become suspicious that my secret isn’t special and that maybe I’m not experiencing the one true God’s love after all. I then go into denial and keep knocking on other peoples’ doors trying to prove that my secret is special and therefore I am special. This is basic human nature.
BS did you go to the Atheist Rally (I almost said convention) on the mall yesterday? I would have loved to see the signs. it really hasn’t gotten that much coverage.
I immediately wondered if lightning struck, repeatedly. Just kidding.
No rallies for me. My brand of atheism is a personal choice that I arrived at after much thinking and reasoning. I don’t need or seek out other non-believers to affirm what I believe to be true. I do not want to be put in the same category with those whose flavor of atheism is more antitheist rather than atheist. Now if it were atheist rally with free beer, I might reconsider.
funny BS 🙂 “athiest rally with free beer”
Is the U.S. a Christian nation? Founded on Christian principles? Let’s, for fun, compare the ten commandments to the laws in this country….1) No other gods before Me..not a US law.2) No graven images…nope, not a law either. 3) No taking Lord’s name in vain…not a law here. 4) Remember the Sabbath… no law. 5) honor thy parents…give me a break. 6)no killing… finally! a law here. 7) no committing adultry… not a public law. 8) No stealing…OK that’s 2 commandments that made it into law. 9) Must speak the truth… not a law except when under oath (1/2 point). 10) No coveting…. Puhleese. Our whole economy is based on coveting. So, is this a Christian based country. 2-1/2 points out of ten leads me to believe that we are founded under some other understanding of law.
@Alanna
“@BlueMoon
Yes, the child believes the parent is rude, stupid and mean but it doesn’t mean the medicine doesn’t work.”
This is exactly the sort of holier-than-thou arrogance I’m talking about. Thanks for illustrating the point.
BS,
Classic! That was fabulous….”2 1/2 points” I love it!!!!
”2 1/2 points” is going to have to be a new code word or something.
Wait…stop a minute…aren’t the 10 Commandments Jewish?
@BlueMoon
you’re actually proving my point add any adjective you like .. The parent is condescending, arrogant, rude, stupid, a know nothing, etc… it doesn’t change the fact that the medicine works.
Elena & BlueMoon
Curious if you two believe God presented himself as a burning bush, parted the red sea, provided manna from heaven, brought water from a rock and passed over the homes of those with lambs blood on their doors? Basically, do you believe in the miracles from the scriptures?
I want to be clear. I believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish scripture. The Old Testament or Torah talks about God as the father of Israel so not sure why that’s such a radical thing to suggest?
I’m not sure I have much to contribute, I believe you all have made some valid points of your respective religions. I believe the Bible is an interesting book of stories put together to catalog the beliefs of an ancient group of people who had a very limited scope of the world. I thing anyone who follows it blindly without adding thoughtful reflection is wrong. You can replace the word “Bible” with any religious chronicle. They are stories of wars and unexplained events. All that being said, I believe in God. I just don’t believe we are smart enough to know what he wants of us other than treating each other with respect and kindness.
That seems to be a tall order, also, Bear–both for individuals, groups and nations.
Alanna,
What does it matter what I believe. That isn’t the point. The point is that you are actually suggesting that I should be evangalized by your faith. Your faith is your private matter, as it should be with everyone.
It’s a personal decision but not a private matter. When you have a dead man rise from the grave, people are inclined to talk about it, even 2,000 years later!
Evangelicals are commanded by God to share the Gospel. I choose to honor his command, even in the face of being called rude, ignorant, stupid, egotistical or condescending.
The last time you called out the Spa I spoke up as well. The owners are great people and run a business that provides an excellent service. This is at least the second time that you’ve chosen to single them out for criticism which baffles me especially since you fought for the right of the porn shop to exist in Old Towne. In my opinion, you are displaying an unwarranted animosity towards the Spa for their choice of music and an email invitation to attend Easter service.
Alanna,
If you feel commanded to share the gospel than why are you troubled that I brought up Tranquility, albeit brief, within the original thread? I did not, at any point, ever name call or degrade the Salon. What I said was that the owner had clearly chosen to alter the environment in her business, and that she should advertise as such. I said she had every right to run her business as she chose and I had every right to take my business elsewhere.
If preaching the gospel is what you believe should be done, than I have done you and Tranquility a favor by “advertising” they are a Christian salon. Please tell me how I have insulted her or her salon? If you truly believe that you are compelled to share the gospel, then you should be proud of her decision to spread the word to her clientelle.
On a completely seperate topic, KK’s in Old Town Manassas CLEARLY advertises what their shop is and that is all I expected from Tranquility. I doubt anyone would walk into KK’s and be surprised they deal sexy lingerie and other such items. However, for 7 years I was a client of Tranquility and the change was drastic and undeniable by he time I decided to leave.
I have been watching this thread, and I do believe we’ve finally gotten to the crux of the argument. “Evangelicals”. Look at the word. As an evangelical I recognize the LORD as the highest authority, and I have been commanded to share my faith, when I recognize that the Holy Spirit has moved me to do so. The challenge for many evangelicals is they feel it is their duty to save souls. Some time ago, I realized that I, me, Steve, cannot save a single soul. Only The Lord can. However, the Lord will use evangelicals like me for his purpose, to “sow seeds” or “Water the Seeds”. Only God can make the seeds grow. Anyone who has planted a garden knows that you can prepare the soil, plant the seed, faithfully water, and some seeds never germinate, and yet, others do. IMHO, the lady who visited Elena’s kid’s berry stand was trying to accomplish all three tasks. However, she was not doing this out of a sense of malice. If she stood there wagging her finger at Elena, making statements of condemnation, then an offense was offerred, and an offense should be taken.
I have to agree with Alanna in that it would seem that Elena has taken offense with tranquility day spa, when none was offerred. Alanna does make a great point, regarding KK’s. They advertise themselves as a “womans boutique”, and many on this blog who defended KK’s, compared them to “Victoria’s Secret”. KK’s would certainly rather be associated with Lingerie, rather than sex-toys and hardcore pornographic content, sold not only in their store, but via their website as well. As a Christian, I find this most offensive. Yeah, Yeah…I know. I don’t have to go in there… But I digress.
What I can’t understand is why people (Athiests, Jews, Muslims, etc). are so easily offended by Christians. If these people don’t subscribe to the same beliefs, then the scriptures are just words, Jesus was just a man who taught some folks and then was killed, Satan doesn’t exist, there is no afterlife, then why get all bent out of shape when a Christian expresses their “quaint” or “annoying” beliefs? If I believed in “Fairy Godmothers” and blessed you with “Bibbity-Bobbity-Boo”, would you get just as offended? If I told you that when you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are, your wishes come true, would you get offended and say “stop trying to push your beliefs on me”?. No, you’d most likely laugh and say I’d been watching to much Disney. So, why the outrage?
@Steve, et al,
I don’t think KK’s has any part in this conversation. When you go to KK’s you know what it is all about. When you go to a spa, you expect spa treatments and hair color, unless you are told otherwise. When Elena started going to that establishment, it was non-religious. I know this because I used to go there also. Elena never said anything mean about the shop, just that it evangelized and she didn’t like being evangelized. Now someone else might like that. Perhaps her comments should be viewed as free advertising. There might be plenty of people who want to go to a Christian spa.
The woman on the road with the raspberries had good intentions but bad manners. No means no. Plus she lied. She doesn’t have lots of Jews going to the church she was talking about. That is when the conversation becomes insulting. Elena isn’t stupid. Lying to get someone to come to your church, in MY opinion, isn’t Christian behavior. Elena called me in disbelief to tell me this story.
I asked Elena to do the piece on being a Jew in a Christian County. I have also asked a non-believer to do a follow up piece in a week or so. I have been Christian since birth. I consider myself a member of the majority religion. I try to be mindful of how others feel.
In recent years, however, I have gotten a little taste of how it feels to be an “other.” Heretofore my experience was limited to being a Episcopalian in a town full of Baptists during a snapshot of my life. Now I find I have been challenged on stealing my husband away from the “one true faith” and that by whose authority do I consider myself a Christian. You know, I don’t have to answer those kinds of questions. I have felt this kind of pressure for about 20 years. I haven’t changed but something has changed.
So if I feel somewhat bullied by some overly zealous Christians, what must someone like Elena feel like? What must non-believers feel like? I try to avoid situations where food for thought becomes a full course meal. Why is it ok for me to tell the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons at my door to move on and yet tolerate the same degree of proselytizing from an acquaintance or a neighbor? Why do people feel like they always need to fix others? I have had a great deal of Christian exposure my entire life. Can’t I be my own brand of Christian?
Truthfully, when this thread got under way, I wasn’t sure if some of the barbs were at Elena, me or both of us. Elena and I have discussed this subject at great length, both before and during. I expect after will bring about as much conversation. I want to share some of the impressions I have gotten from those conversations. There are about 15 million Jews in the world compared to at least a billion Christians and Muslims. 6 million Jews were exterminated during the Holocaust. Yet through all of that, these 15 million survived. Down through the ages, over the centuries, Jews have had forced conversions and nonconsensual baptisms, pogroms, exterminations. Isn’t some of this really about survival? Suvival as individuals and as a people? Why must we assume they need fixing or correcting. Why can’t we let the Jewish culture and religion live and thrive? Christianity, like Islam, is a subset of Judaism, not the other way around.
Elena wants her children to know and understand the Jewish culture. It is part of who they are. It is their roots. Isn’t that what each of us wants for our children?
My purpose in sharing what I feel is a regular “offense” on my faith. I included Tranquility as an example in PWC of a global environment of what feels like an intolerance of OTHER peoples faith. I was born in DC and moved to Fairfax when I was 5. I lived in Fairfax my entire life. When I was in high school I took offense to the “young life” that was being propogated during school hours.
For those of you who are in the majority faith, you can never understand the feelings of someone who has to feel as though they are constantly being disrespected. Not only on my street corner, in government, or in a salon, people have nerve to suggest WHO I am needs to be “saved”.
“Why is it ok for me to tell the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons at my door to move on and yet tolerate the same degree of proselytizing from an acquaintance or a neighbor?”
Moon, if you don’t want to hear it at your door, or Elena doesn’t want to hear it at the edge of her yard, then neither of you shouldn’t have to listen to it, and if someone persists after being politely told “no thanks”, then they are trespassing on the peace of your home.
“My purpose in sharing what I feel is a regular “offense” on my faith. I included Tranquility as an example in PWC of a global environment of what feels like an intolerance of OTHER peoples faith.”
Elena, if memory serves, you initially objected to the Christian music that was being played at the Spa. Correct? Also, I believe there was an email invitation to attend services. Was it for one of the “high holy days” such as Christmas or Easter?
Look, everyone has a right to peace in their homes. No one should be pestered at their door, or in their yard after they’ve declined an invitation to hear the “Good News”. The proximity of my home to the Jehova’s Witness Temple means I regularly get visited by practitioners of their faith. My reactions have ranged from politely telling them that “I’ve got a pot on the stove”, to “I am a Pentecostal”, to “I’m currently in the Jehova’s Witness Protection Program and now I have to call my handlers and have them relocate me”. I’m not offended, and it’s not because I am a Christian. It’s because I understand that these folks are faithfully practicing what they have been called to do.
I think part of the challenge for you and to a some degree Moon, is neither of you come from faith-background that is missional or evangelical at it’s core. If I might be so bold, perhaps a summit of sorts might be in order. From my perspective, I have been a practicing Catholic, and an evangelical protestant. I have a basic understanding of the Jewish faith, the tenants and practice there of, and at some elementary level understand the various sects within Judaism. I suspect you have a similar level of understanding of Christianity, and all its various sects. Questions can be asked and answered, and understanding can be found. The alternative is for all sides to remain hyper-sensitive, defensive, and easily offended.
@Steve, I think that is what we were trying for here. Some discussion.
I have no problem with the fact that Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. evangelize. I generally tell them no thank you or just don’t go to the door. Very rarely do I get someone who refuses. That brings up the concept of “no thank you.” Once that has been said, that should be it. I accept some invitations, others I do not. But once a person has declined, that should do it. There is no reason anyone should be made to feel ill at ease or awkward.
You are correct, I have never been a member of a faith that is evangelical at its core. You were expected to be a good missionary but not an arm twisting type, if that makes sense. I have been Presbyterian and Episcopalian. Both of these churches have evangelical branches as a subset but I didn’t belong to those branches. I come from a long line of people who very much believe the words in Matthew, esp. Matthew 6:5.
Elena shouldn’t be seen as a special catch though. Summit might be in order. I want Andy as a referee though (and I might be cheating there.)
Moon,
As we have often agreed, a blog is sub-optimal for discussing certain topics. For one, much can be lost in translation. Secondly, it is easier to forget tact when you aren’t sitting across the table from the person with whom you are trying to communicate. I wasn’t proposing a debate. Rather, I was proposing a discussion where each party educated the others on the basic tennants of their faith, and why, as a matter of faith, you do or don’t do certain things. More educational than anything. Q & A, not statement & rebuttal. Not expecting to have any conversions, just a greater level of understanding across the board.
@Steve, I think it is a good idea, as far as personal level goes. However, how does that translate as far as a community discussion? I was trying for a community discussion here on the blog. What I find fairly astonishing is, most of our conservatives here are not social conservatives. Most didn’t get involved with this topic. The headed directly for the various threads on Trayvon. For the most part, the more progressive contributors stayed on this thread. There were some new comers here.
I think its an important discussion to have on several levels. Obviously, our government still has some ownership of what religion we will practice for around 2 minutes, if we want to participate in county government. What does the City do?
One of our national debates this spring has been over religion. People are screaming about it on TV as I type. I walk away feeling more like an ‘other.’ Non-believers feel challenged, Some Christians feel their religion is being stripped away. People of other faiths feel like someone is trying to steal their birth right. I think it is high time there be a forum for these discussions, either blog or f2f or both.
Thank you Moon for eloquently expressing a summation of our many conversations since our friendship. I have always appreciated your interest AND respect for my belief system, not just as it pertains to Judiasm as a religion, but also as a culture. Our acceptence of one another is how real bridges are built in communities.
Steve,
I would be interested in listening to how faith has shaped the lives of my friends as long as it is not theological debate about who is “right” 🙂
@Elena, you are more than welcome. I hope I represented you accurately.
This discussion is as old as the republic. In the pre-Constitutional Convention days there were plenty of folks who wanted the new nation to be a “Christian” nation. Wiser heads prevailed and we have a good balance between freedom to practice and wall-of-separation. Thank G-d we had Thomas Jefferson around at the time, who wanted one of the 3 things he wished to be remembered for his authorship of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which, of course, became the model for the wall-of-separation in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution.
My point is there have always been those who want the U.S. to be a “Christian” nation, but their wishes were wisely neutralized.
The obnoxiousness of “Christians” who evangelize, (and as far as I know “Christians” are the only ones who do this in our society), for those of you who asked, is that they have a smug, holier-than-thou, “I’m going to heaven but you aren’t” unless you buy into my mindset, attitude that is (1) an insult to human intelligence, and (2) in MY opinion a stunning display of simultaneous rudeness and psychological weakness that needs constant re-inforcement that it really is okay to believe this fable as truth without any evidence – i.e., the willful suspension of disbelief. I said it earlier and I will repeat it: all forms of self-delusion crave company. That’s what evangelizing is: a desparate effort to get others onboard so that one doesn’t feel alone in one’s willful suspention, and, of course, to get those “converted” to give money.
And, sorry Alanna, but there is no proof of any sort that anyone “rose” from the grave, 2000 years ago, before, or since. Not Ever. If you want to believe that, and it makes you feel all cozy and warm, fine. I’m glad the idea comforts you. But, for those of us who operate in the world of objective reality, I’m just say show me the proof, any proof at all, that there is any historical factuality and I might listen. A look at history shows pretty clearly that organized religion is mostly about power and money. And controlling other people’s lives.
I spent two years studying the Dead Sea Scrolls and, as a result of that study easily concluded that it is much more likely that the whole Jesus story was a literary invention. Why do you think the “Christian” empire tried to suppress them for so long?
Again, believe what you like. But, be aware that belief does not equate to objective reality.
I don’t think any of us have knowledge. We have faith. Maybe faith is a belief that doesn’t require proof.
On another note, Muslims do a great deal of outreach, especially in prisons. I would call it evangelizing. I don’t know what they call it. They even have college courses in prison instructing about Islam. Often people in prison who qualify for community college can’t get the courses they want. There is always something Muslim available.
Although I don’t necessarily agree with how Blue Moon has stated his feelings about Christianity, I do wonder, how does it feel to be on the recieving end of someone who questions your faith?
That is how I feel when hear people tell me I need to be saved or express some sort of pity that I haven’t recieved my proper dose of “medicine”.
Amen, Elena. Amen
As an aside: The Bahai believers also grab strangers and preach their brand of faith. I know !!
@ Blue Moon: how can you not believe in resurrection? Just ask any of the people who worship Ugartic Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Osiris, Dumuji and any believers in zombies.
It’s the pestering to change another person’s viewpoint to which I object. When people lead by example (and I credit Alanna, Elena, Moon, and Unity in the Community and others on their stance against the hatred stirred up in our community over immigration status), they are to be commended. A person’s good deeds do more to reflect on their religion or spiritual beliefs than proselytizing or threatening damnation. Those people I mentioned stood honorably against some dark forces. Whatever their separate and private beliefs, they showed themselves willing to speak out for the good of the community. Those individual actions should be important, not whether any one of them adheres to a particular religious sect.
Thank you for your kind words, Censored. Please include yourself as one who stood up for reason and communication and dialogue. I remember you there every step of the way.
@Elena
How does it feel to have someone question my faith? Happens all the time, although rarely what I would call ?hostile”. It happens each and every time I comment on a thread here, such as those regarding abortion, where faith is a component thereof.
Steve, Help me understand this, give me an example. I am trying to think of a case where I have attacked someone’s religion when discussing abortion. (not necessarily you) If I have done that, I probably need it pointed out. I think we should be able to discuss differences in public policy without attacking each other’s faith or without anyone feeling like their faith is under attack.
Having said that, probably for some of us, (not all) our faith is what governs on where we fall on some issues. I usually don’t personalize those. However, I did go snarky on someone on another blog for suggesting that PWC ‘ran its ‘illegals’ out of town.’ The mental image that brings up reminds me of what was done to Joseph Smith and his followers. PWC doesn’t ‘run people out of town.’ The comment didn’t offend my faith as much as it offended my sensibilities. It painted a picture of my county that I found offensive on so many levels.
Now for the personal, I have felt very much under assault for the past couple of years by the political climate in this country. I will whine privately though. So many of the things that define who I am or have been are political targets. On several occassions, I would have felt like I would have had more respect if I had been in prison for a few decades. It can be depressing. It not only dragged me down but depressed me over my deceased parents.
And Elena, I don’t think I’ve ever said you needed saving. I don’t know if you do. The only person I know who needed saving is me. And I did. And I am.
@Moon-howler
Moon,
I wasn’t referring to you specifically, nor can I recall you attacking anyone’s religion. I am referring to the many times my positions regarding abortion and birth control have been rejected simply because they are based on my faith. Recent examples include the debate over whether or not a faith-based institution should be forced to provide contraception as part of their employee health benefits. I argued that this is a matter of religious freedom. Rather than “name names”, lets just say that the “faith argument” was rejected out-of-hand by some regulars here.
As far as “feeling very much under assault” by the political climate, I can relate. I think both sides can claim that mantle. This is what happens when you have such a high degree of polarization, a break-down in civility, and hyper-sensitivity. Both sides feel like they are under attack. Ironically, the Bible predicts this will happen, in Mark 13: 3-19.
I appreciate the discussion, it has caused me to think back to my saving almost 14 years ago. A friend of mine and her two young children died leaving her husband and 4 year-old daughter. A group of people from Iglesia Bethel an offshoot of the Manassas Assembly of God began caring for them, but at the time I remember thinking they were like vultures constantly circling. I wondered why they wouldn’t just leave him alone. I thought they would just add to his grief and that he didn’t really need their added pressure during this difficult time. However, as time went by I noticed an undeniable change in this man. Eventually, I too attended service at Iglesia Bethel. It was 8 months after the tragedy that I accepted Christ and it was an undeniable experience. I encountered a peace beyond words that I believe is a small taste of what heaven will be like.
God in the Torah is the same God I worship. I believe that the relationships he had with his people then is the same kind he wants to have with each of us today. God and his Spirit existed then and still does.
@Alanna
Does this mean we are we still riding to Georgetown together 😉 ?
@Alanna
“God in the Torah is the same God I worship. I believe that the relationships he had with his people then is the same kind he wants to have with each of us today. God and his Spirit existed then and still does.”
Amen.
Steve,
I think the way many people feel here is that we expect freedom FROM religion. I believe everyone should worship in any way they choose and it is a private matter. It’s when religion blurs into the public arena as policy that it concerns people like me. I could reverse that an say many very religious people are opposed to war, but that belief should not dictate public policy.
I know many people that find true comfort in their faith, I believe that can be a beautiful place to “rest”.
@Elena
Elena,
Throughout the entire recorded history of man, religon has been a source of conflict. I’m sure there were a bunch of Caananites, Jebusites, Philistines, and such that were more than a little miffed at the arrival of the Children of Abraham in their lands. I think one of the problems we face as a society is folks seem to think that the bill of rights is a contract between individuals. It is not. It is a contract between the central government of these here United States, and the people from which this governement’s power is derrived. The BoR does not extend to your employer, the retail store selling Christmas wares, or other private pursuits. Freedom FROM religion and the “seperation of church and state” appear no where in the BoR, and reading the writings of the founding fathers would indicate that no such intent existed when the 1st ammendment was written. While I would prefer my government leaders to be “Godly Men and Women”, I do not wish to live in a theocracy. When I say “Godly Men and Women”, I don’t mean that they actively practice one religion or another. I simply mean they exercise their granted powers in a manner that would be pleasing to God, regardless of whether or not they personally believe in a supreme being.
I once got some sound advice from an employee. This fellow arrived in the United States after fleeing from Iran after the fall of the Shah. He was a Muslim. His advice was to flee your country as soon as you can when religion takes over governement, even if it is your own religion. Steve: I’m glad you settled the issue of the separation of church and state. So many scholars, constitutional lawyers, historians and academics have been arguing the issue for years wasting their time. I’ll have them give you a call.
@BSinVA
“@ Blue Moon: how can you not believe in resurrection? Just ask any of the people who worship Ugartic Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Osiris, Dumuji and any believers in zombies.”
Hahahahahaha!!!! Good one!