Allow me to share my perspective living in this County. On a regular basis, I find myself having to explain I am not a Christian and it is always very uncomfortable.
As I have shared in previous posts, having suddenly felt as though I was being “evangelized”, I made the decision to leave my hairdresser because the owner of Tranquility chose to spread her faith in her Salon, Tranquility Day Spa.
Here is a story I did not share. My kids had picked raspberries on our property and sold them on the corner of our property. Our street intersects a main road. A very nice woman stopped and wanted to buy some berries. I shared that a portion of the money the kids raised would go to the Wounded Warrior Project. This very nice woman replied how wonderful it was that the kids we donating a portion of their hard earned money to a charity.
She then continued on to share her church, had recently done a fundraiser for Wounded Warrior also. I told her I thought that was fantastic. The conversation should have stopped there in my opinion. It didn’t. Let me interject, at this point in the story, that I always wear my Star of David. In this county, I almost feel like I have to in order to deflect the religious overtures I feel on a regular basis. Anyway, I digress.
She follows up by inviting me to her church, to which I very nicely reply. ” I am Jewish”. Now, the conversation REALLY should be over now. Instead, she pushes on. “Well, we have lots of Jewish families at our Church”. NO, NO you don’t. If you belong to [Name Deleted] Christian Church you are NOT Jewish. Period. End of Story. Once again, remaining very nice I respond “I am the real kind of Jew, the kind that goes to Temple”. She is still smiling at me, trying to figure out how she can convince me to turn towards Jesus. At some point, my 6 year old daughter speaks up and says “yes, I am Jewish too”. I say “thank you” and tell her I hope she enjoys the fresh raspberries and freshly made lemonade with my biggest smile, hiding my frustration and, to be honest, my anger.
At the McCoart building, attending the meeting to fight the Rural Crescent intrusion, once again, I am surrounded by the explicit action of my Christian “neighbors” that makes those who do NOT share their faith feel uncomfortable. The invocation, which I find completely unnessesary, at the BOCS meeting began with a prayer. What is the first action Christians do when they pray, they bow their heads. Jews honor G-d in special prayers by standing. Do you know what else we don’t do? We don’t call G-d, Father. That is strictly a Christian term.
So, here I am, in full chamber full of people, heads bowed, with only few like myself, standing, looking straight forward. Want to know what it feels like to stick out like a sore thumb? Welcome to my world.
I wonder, just for a moment, how all those people would have felt if someone who worshiped Islam had come in and asked everyone honor Allah in their prayer.
I am insulted by this farce of praying before decisions are made by our BOCS. For me, I am further insulted just knowing the duplicitous nature of politics and the absence of ethics and morals that occurs in our county government by many of our elected officials.
The BOCS should adopt the School Board policy that they themselves don’t follow and go with moment of silents and the Pledge. It’s about time that the county recognize and adapt to the fact that they are no longer a monolithic community. Everyone should feel welcome engaging their government, whether they are addressing Prince William County School Board or county government.
First half: you met a goofball. Sorry, but they’re out there, and occasionally you will run into one. Wait ’till an Amway-nut gets hold of you.
Second half: You are correct that praying before government meetings is true hypocrisy. You’d have support, but then y’all go after Christmas trees, and that’s when you piss everyone off. Discussing religion can get tricky, no?
Slow,
I have an amway story for you and I love xmas trees!
There’s an interfaith panel you might be interested in, “Building Common Ground: Discussions of Civility and Compassion” to be held Sat., March 31 from 2-4 pm at Chinn Park Regional Library, 703-792-4800 for more info.
Anyone is welcome — panel includes Rabbi Jennifer Weiner of Congregation Ner Shalom, Imam Johari Abdul-Malik of Dar Al Hijrah/Dar alNoor and Rev. Knox and Bev Swayze of Covenant Presbyterian Church among others. Sponsored by Unity in the Community and the Friends of Chinn Park Regional Library.
I do like the moment of silence.
I thought most of the Amway nuts had found something else to do. Can you even still buy that stuff? One of my cousins got involved in Christian vitamins. He is one of the outlier cousins. Most of my cousins are….a little to the left. These are the cousins descendend from the civil war veteran. Must have been the water in Yorktown that caused the left leaning cousin problem.
@pokie
I love Christmas trees too. I think it is manger scenes that people go after and only if they are on public property.
And that is what it is all over….public property. Government promotion of a religion.
“Christian vitamins”
Man, isn’t science awesome?! Here I’m working to be a better Christian each and every day, and I can take a pill that’ll help me? Whoa…this is like the Matrix….
All kidding aside, Elena, I know it can be annoying and uncomfortable. Please keep in mind that she meant well, as she believes the “path is wide, but the gate is narrow” into heaven. Yes, she should have backed off when you politely declined and informed her that you practice another faith, beit Judaism, Catholicsm, Jehova’s Witness, etc.
I come from a long line of people who frowned on being ostentacious with prayer. They didn’t care for public displays and taught me not to do it. This was one of the verses I got reminded of all the time:
“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6)
I am not comfortable praying at government and public gatherings. I can only imagine what it must be like to be forced into someone else’s belief system. It’s not like going to someone else’s church. That is voluntary. It is like someone else’s church came to where you are and forced their religion on you, without your permission.
Elena and others should not have to feel like they are the only ones not bowing their heads. While I am on this subject….there are Christian churches I would not go to because they make me uncomfortable. Elena, I totally understand.
@Steve Thomas
The world loves a smart ass….just kidding just kidding. That’s what he told me…he was selling Christian vitamins. He probably believed it. Nice guy. Just a little strange.
I agree. The lady probably meant well but she way overstepped and made Elena uncomfortable. I just focused on how many Jews are members of her Christian Church. Now that’s a new one on me!
I think one invitation is very nice. Anything more is really not a good thing. It makes people very uncomfortable.
Speaking of faith, not religion, our friend George Harris has a wonderful story about someone sharing their faith on his facebook page.
Here’s a fundamental aspect of Christianity and Christians: They constantly need psychological reinforcement for their faith because it flies in the face of all logic. The only way they can get that reinforcement is to get other people to “see the light”, as they have conviced themselves they see it. All forms of self-delusion need company. Houses of worship, of all faiths, do lots of wonderful things – help the homeless, feed the hungry, etc. But the theologies are often just plain nutty. Western and middle Eastern faiths have the common characteristic of thinking theirs’ is the only way to heaven, or eternal sex w/virgins, or pearly gates, etc. I was once accosted by a religion drunk woman on the streets of Haymarket who asked me if I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior. I looked at her as if she were totally deranged and said “don’t be ridiculous” and moved on. Trouble in our PWC government is that several supervisors are just as bad as that woman in Haymarket, or the woman who bought your berries and lemonnade, Elena.
Bluemoon, let me see how to say this…I am at a loss. You do understand that you probably just stepped on the toes of most of the bloggers here?
I wish you had expressed your thoughts with an “In my opinion” somewhere along the line.
The “problem” with Christianity, if one wants to call it a problem, is that its very nature is to evangelize. “Sharing the Good News” sometimes reaches a little further than some would like it.
I would like to suggest that we all attempt to be respectful of all religions, even those we don’t want to be members or participants of. If we do that, then we can demand the same of others.
I just ran into an Amway-nut in Nordstrom in Dallas, TX a few weeks back. Hadn’t run into one in years…wasn’t even sure they were still around! I wouldn’t put your “come to our church” lady about the Amway girl I ran into.
A Seventh Day Adventist ventured into my garage about twelve years, shortly after we had lauched a score or two of cruise missiles into I believe Bosnia. He was carrying on about the expense of the missiles, the economic impact of war on our country, etc., etc., etc. and asked me to sign a petition opposing further missile strikes. I politely informed him that I owned stock in Lockheed Martin, etal and as each cruise missile purchased represented roughly 1 million in profit, I was quite comfortable with the Air Force and Navy firing them off like firecrackers on the Fourth of July as it would improve the value of my holdings when the military had order replacements. Good thing they’re not prone to violence because the look on his face as he stomped down the drive was priceless.
I didn’t know they evangelized. I am not sure of their beliefs. @MoM
re 7th Day Adventists.
@Moon-howler
I suppose my words may have been somewhat impolitic. However, I am personally ever-mindful that most of the greatest crimes in history has been instigated/inspired by/committed in the name of religion which, by all evidence, is entirely a human invention.
On that note, afraid I must agree, Blue Moon. I always try to make it a practice to not blame the Good Lord for the stupidity and foibles of mankind.
All I want to know is where the fresh lemonade stand is located. And are there any plans for challah? I can get down on some fresh lemonade and challah.
Cato,
Not to brag, but I will ;), I have been told that my homemade Challah truly wonderful. Last week at special Purim service, several people commented they thought it was the “best Challah they had ever had”, and did not know I had made it 🙂
I remember some nice ladies knocking on my door two summers ago, asking about whether I had accepted Jesus as my lord and savior. As always, very politely, I explained I was Jewish and have a nice day. As always, very politely, with a smile, they proceeded to try to convince me I needed to discuss my faith. It was like I was being quizzed on how Jewish I really was. Last summer went by without one visitor so maybe the network has x’d my house of the list to visit.
Steve,
I know people don’t mean to “turn me” with malice in their heart. And unless you are Jewish you may not understand the depths to which the Holocaust still exist for people like me, but it does. It isn’t just that Jews were killed, its that we haven’t even been able to replenish our pre Holocaust population number. Every Jew that lives today is a testament to the strength of the Jewish people to survive another attempt to annialate us. I resent it that people don’t understand how important it is for the few survive to be left alone. There only about 15 million Jews in the world compared to over a billion christians and over a billion muslims.
@Mom
Just an aside about the 7th Day Adventists. I lived in the second largest city in a third world country. The top rated hospital there was run by them. They also held classes in English for those who wanted to improve themselves.
I don’t believe what they believe, buit I do believe that they’re doing good, and that’s probably the case with most sects. They have bad sides, and they have good sides. Salvation Army tries to evengelize those they help, which I don’t agree with, but they are doing a heep of good around the world.
I must say I admire those LDS guys who ride around on bikes with white shirts and black ties, not matter what the weather is like. When they come around in the summer, I usually ask them whether they’d like a glass of water. We sit down on my front porch and comiserate about the heat and humidity. I tell them I’m not interested in becoming a Mormon, wish them luck, and they leave.
@Punchak
I used to have ‘Mormon INsurance.’ A MOrmon family lived next door to me. The kids finally confessed that we had “Mormon Insurance” because the kids had told all the missionaries who always checked in at that house first that we were all hopeless cases and not to waste their time on us.
The family moved after many years.
@Elena
Probably a harder position to defend against the proselytizers is that of being an agnostic or atheist. They, the proselytizers, are determined that you should be at least one religion! And the Christmas tree or manger bans are all laid at your feet even if you don’t contribute one dime to any anti-religious institution. It’s as though atheists are believed to be united in some anti-church conspiracy. For many people atheism is merely the end result of their private journey of rational thought. They have no desire of joining any anti-religion group. (That’s not to say that some people don’t unite, but the majority that I’ve met don’t.)
Most atheists that I know were in mixed marriages (Jewish and Protestant) where religion wasn’t an important topic for either of them and they had long since stopped going to church or synagog. When they had children and those children asked questions about religion, they answered by giving information about the religions in which they were raised and offered to take the children to a Unitarian Church. The kiddos stayed until they felt their questions had been answered and most remained non-churchgoers. (I’ve even known a priest who spent a year or two as an agnostic.)
I don’t like attending governmental meetings where the session is opened with prayer (of any denomination). I’d prefer a moment of silence. But I also object to saying the Pledge of Allegiance. I’ll stand but not repeat it. I believe for too much of this country’s history liberty and justice have not been for all and we’re seeing an attempt now to infringe on women’s rights. I don’t need to parrot untruths.
When I was in high school, each homeroom started the day with the Pledge and a Bible reading. When that was banned, the Jewish kids were allowed to leave the classroom during the Bible recitation and Lord’s Prayer – as though that satisfied the law- but the school board allowed the religious readings and prayers to continue.
@censored
Leave it to you to open up a bunch of other cans of worms.
I can see why kids have to do the pledge. I also have no problem with them sitting quietly if they choose not to. However, I don’t see why adults feel the need to do it before government meetings.
Ok, now you bring it up….I will pledge my allegiance to my country because I am a citizen of this country. I love our flag but I don’t like pledging allegiance to a cloth. I never have. I also remember when ‘under God’ was put in. It doesn’t bother me but I can see where it might bother others.
Leaving the room just draws attention to how much of an OTHER someone is.
@Elena
Get thee to the farmers market. The challah sold there is a pale shadow of the real deal.
Blue Moon: you got a brother here in BSinVA. Friends: I am a full blown atheist. I am the least likely to win public office. The most likely to be talked about behind my back. If the Radical Islamist take over this country, gays and BSinVA are dead meat. I do not bow my head at public or private prayers but I do stand in respectful silence. I equate all religious belief with the same psychological factors that compel us to watch the movies and root for the good guys over the villians. I believe that Christian Science, Islam, Christianity, Horoscopes, and all other religious beliefs are equal. They fulfill a common basic need for humans and I don’t fault that. Many of us are afraid of the unknown, the dark, THEM and need a big magic friend in the sky to protect us. I get it and how you want to define your magic friend is OK with me. Elena: know this…. that what you experience from mostly good-hearted Christians: I experience from almost everyone. I used to it and am happy to debate religion with anyone.
Does anyone feel good about doing opening exercises at public meetings? So far, not one person has spoken out in favor of public prayers before public meetings.
Does anyone favor opening prayers (and pledge)? Tell us how you feel. Is there justification or do we just to it to impress our friends and neighbors?
BSinVA, the atheist here. I object to the pledge of allegiance too. I pay my taxes without cheating, I vote, I am an election officer, I served in the military, I gave blood to the Red Cross, I’ve served on juries, I was a Boy Scout, my mother is a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution, I volunteer at the local community college, I’ve served as an officer in my community association, I was born in the U.S., …I am a citizen. I do not need to publically profess my allegiance to the United States…., I’ve proven it already. People will look askance at me for not reciting the words without knowing what I have done for my country. And if you think that the mindless repitition of words before a class or before a public meeting is better than what I have done, then think of my contributions and those of others before rolling your eyes.
@Moon-howler
I see the Pledge as an appropriate teaching tool in school. As kiddos get older they can discuss whether there are discrepancies between what is in it and reality. (Ha – Some poor teacher would have to hop on the third rail, I suspect, in order to do that!)
I’ll never forget one civic association meeting I attended where the flag was not in its usual spot. In fact, it was nowhere to be seen. The president of the association had everyone stand and face the air conditioner near where the flag would have been and recite the pledge. What an effing hoot! Some normal reciters refused to pledge to the AC and stood silent.
O.K. Pokie, here is my amway story. Way back when( in a previous decade of my younger years that started with 2 instead of 4)I was working for a woman who was gonna get rich off Amway. I resisted and resisted until she started using the product ( I was a professional make up artist working my way through school) for our clients and then I had no choice. I finally cried uncle and said I would go to a meeting.
In the meeting at the guys house, which must have held at least 30 people, we all listened to the spiel about getting rich and not having to work, blah blah blah. He then said that people who work are fools.
I then raised my hand and said “you know, there is more to life than money, and plenty of people have jobs, like doctors, like teachers, and many other professions whose value cannot be judged soley on profit value”.
You could have heard a pin drop. That was NOT the amway selling point apparently. I finally told my boss/friend, when she brought me to a large meeting, a few hundred people and started the meeting with a prayer to help congress pass a “day of prayer”. And yes, I alone in, a sea of bowed heads, took my leave post haste.
End of Amway for me.
I want to add, all my close friends are Christians, never, never once, have I ever felt ill at ease with them. I accept them and they accept me. I have other people I am friendly with who hold no formal belief system, I also feel accepted by them and visa versa.
I think it is wonderful that at the end of the day, we don’t see our differences, we see our commonality.
THIS is what I would like to have in the public forum, celebrating how we can find ways to come together, not ways that seperate us. However unintentional, religion has a way of defining the “others” and I don’t think that is healthy in a society as diverse as ours.
@Elena, I don’t necessarily want to celebrate in the public forum. If I am in a meeting setting I want to damn meeting to start and be over. (yes, I am a meeting grouch) I have spent too much time in my life in meetings. I could probably measure the time in years. Otherwise, I agree.
To all, when Elena and I started discussing this ‘series’ about religion in government, she told me how she spots she is at a Christian gathering. I was dumbfounded. It was never anything I have ever thought about. Jews don’t bow their heads to pray, they stand. It would have never occurred to me to even think about that. They also do not refer to God as “Father.” Again, I had no idea.
From the Americans United for Separation of Church and State website:
@Moon-howler
Fellow meeting grouch here. I attend meetings of organizations whose purpose I consider worthwhile but like to get it over with as quickly as possible and spent at least some time talking with the other people (I’ll avoid that tired and clichéd term, “networking”). I enjoy talking with the people regardless of whether I’ll make a professional connection or not.
The worst is people at work who always want to be in a meeting. I’ve known several over the years who called meetings all the time to get others’ “input,” which they would then write up and present as their own. I hate offices. Avoiding that sort of people, and other miscellaneous and sundry buffoons and idiots were among my reasons for starting my own business. That was more important to me than the prospect of more money.
I got chewed out a bit in a previous thread for bringing up IQs. It’s important to understand, however. High IQ and introverted people are not anti-social. They enjoy good conversations with small groups or one-on-one. They hate and loath large groups of people in superficial environments, small talk, and chit-chat. They can’t tolerate fools, stupidity or hypocrites. They don’t object to having what they say challenged by someone else, that the challenger had better have good reasons to support what they say.
That brings me to the subjects of reason, faith and tolerance. I grew up in a mainstream Protestant church and am today very active in leadership roles in that church. My church has always taught Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but also respect for others’ right to believe as they chose. We were also taught to understand other faiths and people. My church youth groups visited synagogues, various denominations, and others. That didn’t mean that we were abandoning our faith but just acknowledging that what others believe has value also and that we didn’t have the ultimate knowledge of everything in the universe.
I believe strongly in reason and rationality. However, I think that those who claim there is no God because they don’t have tangible evidence of a God in their hand are missing a lot. To arrive at that conclusion, you have to assume that you have all of the evidence and that you know everything needed to arrive at such a conclusion. We are far from such knowledge. Even with scientific advances and the acceleration of knowledge we’ve experienced, we know probably only a tiny fraction of all there is to know. The scientific method and reason are not able to prove conclusively that there is or is not a God.
I’m convinced that God exists, and I’m comfortable with my Christian faith. However, I’ll respect someone else’s right to believe otherwise. That respect is the foundation of American values.
Moon asked if anyone supported prayer at public events. I guess I do if at public events it is done in such a way that respects the beliefs of everyone present. A Jew should not be made to feel as if she doesn’t belong in an environment such as a Board of Supervisors meeting. Thinking about it I suppose I don’t really care.
My feelings are much the same as those of Ronald Reagan (did anyone really think I wouldn’t invoke him again)? Reagan was sometimes attacked by the Christian Right for not being religious enough. In fact, Reagan was a strong Christian who believed in practicing your faith in private, as Matthew Chapter 6 advocates. Everyone should actually read that entire chapter to get Jesus’ thoughts on public prayer. What He said is not exactly the same thing as what the more fervent advocates of all prayer, at all times, in all places, want.
One final thought. Harry Truman once said that if you meet a fellow who yells too loud on Saturday night and prays too loud on Sunday morning, go home and lock your hen house immediately.
@NTK
Stereotyping the gifted? What happens when we include multiple intelligences?
I’m huge believer in seperation of Church & State. There’s no need for a prayer to open any public meeting held in a public building. Christianity is NOT the only religion.
Elena,
I can tell you growing up in Manassas with state’s largest Catholic congregation in our backyard, being a protestant at Sudley Elementary you were in the minority. It wasn’t until middle school that I went to school with a Jewish person. I understand we are a “Christian Nation”, but that does NOT mean that we are all Christians. There are many religions and someone will always be excluded as long as these prayers continue.
Disclaimer: I try to make it a habit not to touch religion.
I would argue that we are not a Christian nation. We are a nation where the religion of the majority of the people is Christian.
Love that sentence Laf:
“There are many religions and someone will always be excluded as long as these prayers continue. ”
I would only add for atheist friends, or lack of religion.
@Elena
Agreed about atheist. I have a couple in my family, along with agnostists, and a Mormon or two. Oh, and I don’t want to forget my favorite cult of all that my sister hooked up with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
That’s how the media bills us.
@Lafayette
Lafayette – we are not a Christian nation. We are specifically not a nation of any specific religious belief or affiliation. Suggest you read the U.S. Constitution. See 1st Amendment.
This Is My Desire – Michael W. Smith
@Lafayette, yes, they do, or rather some of them do. I just don’t agree with them.
@Blue Moon, Lafayette is one of our blog historians. There are a bunch of people who think we are a Christian nation, based on founding of the nation etc. I am not one of them, as I stated, that doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there with legitimate opinons that differ from mine.
Alanna, where do you fall on this discussion? Is the United States a Christian Nation or a nation that has a lot of Christians?
I am glad you are here for this one….are you always comfortable with opening ceremonies involving prayer?
I find your snideness to be highly offensive and uncalled for! I said explained why I said that and even used quotes. I won’t offer any suggestion as to what you can do. 🙂
IAs it unfair if I read your mind, Laf?
@Moon-howler
Nope. I dare you to try to read my mind as to which thread I’m going to hit next.
Blue Moon,
I was hoping this thread would be an opportunity to discuss with civility who we as a nation. Maybe you could reframe your point so that it invites conversation.
A main reason why the pilgrims came here was so that they could have freedom of religion. All you have to do is read our founding documents and you hear about God. What about today’s date? That’s based on Christ as well. Should we change that to avoid someone’s delicate sensibilities? Do I think we are a nation of Christians? Not anymore.
On a personal note, it’s very sad to know Christ and have people you love reject him. It’s like being a parent with a sick child and you have the medicine. If they would just take the medicine they would be better but the child’s defiant and doesn’t want to believe you.
I love Elena but I don’t understand why she needs to single out AGAIN this Spa over their supposed “agregious behavior” of playing Christian music and sending an email invitation to an Easter service. How about singling out the karate school that neglected to buckle in your child as they traveled around town. 🙂
@Alanna,
I forgot to say thanks for sharing your perspect.
I believe that the spa has begun to advertise that they are a Christian spa, which is fine. Once a person knows, they have a choice. I believe Elena’s gripe was that she didn’t know and she felt evangelized. I know she was deeply troubled by it. She might be doing them a favor with some free advertising.
WE can also look at Jamestown. They were happy Anglicans. Well, maybe not so happy once they got here and got a taste of Virginia weather and mosquitoes. They came as second and third sons and adventurers, seeking their fortunes. There was very little religious component in their ventures. That is not to say they were Godless. Virginia actually had a state religion at one time, I think until the Revolution.
Sadly, the Pilgrims who were a sect of the Puritans didn’t really exercise that much religious freedom themselves. Roger Williams and Anne Hutchineson were both drummed ceremoniously out of Dodge, as the story goes. People were dunked as witches and more than one was burned at the stake.
I have never believed in blaming the good Lord because mankind is stupid and evil, however.
In America no one should feel like they are under a gun to practice or not practice a religion. That includes at a school board meeting or BOCS meeting.
I have an incredibly stupid question…in counties like Cuba and Russia that went for years without religion, did they keep the Gregorian calendar? Also what year is it in Muslim countries? I have never even thought about it. The Gregorian calendar is also called the international calendar.
I will agree that our country is culturally Christian. It would be hard to argue otherwise.
Dear Alanna,
I could argue in opposition with plenty of evidence to demonstrate that most of our founding fathers were diests http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1272214/The-Founding-Fathers-Deism-and-Christianity
I could also argue that the karate place apologized profusely and wanted to make amends, clearly NOT what tranquility wanted or should have done in my opinion. In fact, I would add that their new website clearly shows a pervasive Christian tone.
A neighbor of mine, just last week, who has NO idea of my experience there, commented that she had recieved a gift certificate from her husband and shared that although she was going to use it, she definately had no interest in bringing her regular business there because of the clear religous mission of the spa. At least now Tranquility is clear and no one will be blindsided like I was.
Apparently I was wrong, I thought my friends did accept me with no interest of changing me. I don’t need anyone’s sympathy because I don’t believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. Like I said, there are only 15 million Jews left in the world, don’t you think we deserve to be left alone? Isn’t it amazing that no matter how many times, throughout the centuries, through murder or forced conversion, somehow, we continue to survive? No, I don’t need anyones sympathy, just their acceptance that I don’t need to be changed.
I still think if they had cut you bald or colored your hair wrong we would have heard less about it.
I’m still hoping for a Saul on the way to Damascus conversion for you. 🙂 And it’s not because I don’t think you’re perfect! I just can’t imagine eternity without you. But in case I die before it happens…
I do hereby issue my last will and testament, being of sound mind and contractual ability, I hereby request all Christians worldwide to continue to preach the good news of Christ and for each and everyone of them to continue inviting Elena Schlossberg-Kunkel to church.
In this era of government mandates, I take a different view. I am inclined to push back on any government decisions/rules that restrict the First Amendment.
This issue is not really a matter of separation of church and state, because individual supervisors choose how to start the meeting. There is no pre-defined religion or ritual imposed by the county, nor is any particular religion eliminated. If a supervisor were Jewish or Islamic, nothing would prevent an invocation based on those religions.
Another point is that no one is forced to participate in the invocation. If the prayers reflected Judaism, Islamism, or Momonism, I would not participate either. Our constitutional republic was not designed to make people comfortable, it was designed to protect our freedoms. I would much rather have someone freely practice his religion (even supervisors on the BOCS) than allow the federal government dictate when and where religion can be practiced.
Finally, we have been taught for years that diversity is a good thing. It would seem that staring straight ahead with head unbowed during prayer would be an excellent opportunity to demonstrate diversity of religion in Prince William County. It also presents an opportunity for people of different faiths to demonstrate the same level of respect and tolerance that they expect to receive.
@Elena
Mr. Howler just told me that in his day, Catholics didn’t bow their heads either. He said it was a protestant thing. He also said that the founders also referred to God as the Creator, not ‘the Father.’
@kelly_3406
There is also freedom from religion. The majority doesn’t have to right to tromp over the minority.
There is far too much room for abuse doing it the Kelly way. Many people aren’t as comfortable being different as you are.
Over the years, I have also felt some bullying, if you happen to be in an enclave of certain religions. I think it is probably just human nature.
Kelly,
I guess my view is that religion is not a part of the government process. I believe in the first amendment too just as strongly as I believe government shall establishment no religion.
For those few minutes, during the invovation, when the audience is “instructed” to pray, government has established a religion in my opinion. furthmore, of ALL the times I have been to the BOCS, all but once (a rabbi)have represented Christianity.
Totally agree, Elena. The government has established a religion–not for long, but its a long 2 minutes if it isn’t your faith. You have my total support on this one.
thank you Moon 🙂
So if the prayer were given at 7:25 pm, five minutes before the official meeting began, would you still object?
“@Blue Moon, Lafayette is one of our blog historians. There are a bunch of people who think we are a Christian nation, based on founding of the nation etc. ”
Very true, MH. There also used to be a bunch of people who thought the world was flat, (who knows, maybe some still do). There are also a bunch of people who think the Earth is only about 6000 years old. That didn’t and doesn’t make it true. People can have whatever opinions they like. Sort of like creator of the dark blog thinking his mission to rid PWC of all “illegal aliens” is G-d’s will. Sorry, but that’s just nutty, in my opinion.
Elena’s original posted highlighted the obnoxiousness of people who feel compelled to prosletyze. My opinion, and I am not even remotely alone in this, is that those types of folks can only feel comfortable in their religious beliefs by trying to get others on board to think the same way. Which, to me, shows an amazing lack of conviction in one’s own beliefs because they clearly need reinforcement by other’s joining in. Statements like Alana’s
“I’m still hoping for a Saul on the way to Damascus conversion for you. And it’s not because I don’t think you’re perfect! I just can’t imagine eternity without you. But in case I die before it happens…”
to Elena is, in my opinion, emblematic of this syndrome. Imagine the arrogance, (sorry Alana), of someone thinking that only their religion is the pathway to eternity.
Eternity either exists in reality or it is a human imagined concept without any basis in reality. Sort of like Santa Claus. Religion and politics, more than any other spheres of social endeavor, divide people from one another. Isn’t that silly and, oh by the way, antithetical to the tone you have tried to establish with this blog?
Blue Moon, my only point and I am sure it didn’t escape your watchful eye, was to be more polite in expressing your different point of view. You have done that and so I am happy.
I try to be respectful even of snake handlers and peyote smokers. Sometimes it is difficult, I will admit. I probably have the most difficulty with someone trying to tell me that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Where I lost it was at the Grand Canyon, seeing that book in the book store under science. ARRGGGHHHH. No, that isn’t science. If people want to believe that, fine by me, but it is not science and do not call it science.
Sometimes I forget my manners over cases like that.
In a perfect world, I just don’t want to know if someone believes that the Grand Canyon was a result of the Great Flood 6 thousand years ago. As long as I don’t know, I am good. You are right about blog tone. I try not to be like the dark master and that includes not laughing at his religious beliefs like he does to others.
God either exists or he doesn’t. We all agree on that. Either you are 100% right or 100% wrong. There is as much evidence that God exists as the existence of a giant green dragon in your closet. If you need to believe in what your tribe, parents, elders told you then OK. If you want to use your reason then OK too! I choose to use reason and understand why others can’t. Elena: when the Christians accost me, I look upon them with pity (sounds Christian doesn’t it), they exihibit the natural instincts of most humans in that they need to belong to a group (by the way… Religious preference is mostly geographic in nature). I once read that there were almost 400 Gods currently revered by humans. If that is true then you readers don’t believe in 399 of them. I just don’t believe in just one more than you.
BS, I am going to poke a hole in one of your arguments. HE. Perhaps God isn’t exactly what Jews, Christians and Muslims think. Perhaps God isn’t a he. Maybe not even a she. Is there a third option? Just applying my logic.
Is this where you come back and say shut up Moon, stop being technical.