We haven’t brought up George Zimmerman since his arrest. Why? Let’s let the legal system do its thing. Is he guilty? I have no idea. That is something for a judge and a jury to decide. They are the ones who will have the evidence.
There are several issues, however. The main issue is that nothing was being done. I think most people want equal justice for all, regardless of race, sexual orientation, national origin. We had a couple with a dead son and no answers. Not only was their son dead but law enforcement had held the body for 3 days without contacting the parents. The parents wanted answers.
Another issue which we can’t avoid discussing is this partisan approach to this tragic death. On the one hand, we have Team Zimmerman. On the other hand, we have Team Treyvon. Something is horribly wrong with that scenario. This isn’t a sporting event! When all is said and done, 2 sets of parents have lost a son. The Martin family has lost their son permanently. Treyvon won’t come back from the dead. On another level, part of the Zimmerman son will not come back either. He will emerge from all this a markedly different person, regardless of conviction or not. In many respects, he is a marked man. The entire situation is just sad.
Because nothing was being done, an entire nation was glued to the media and galvanized along party lines over the death of a young man. That should not have happened. I truly hope George Zimmerman can get a fair trial. I fear that justice started its grinding trek far too late to guarantee that will happen. Too many minds were made up before they had facts, which is never a good thing.
Meanwhile, we don’t anticipate revisiting the scene of this crime unless something very unforeseen happens.
Martin’s girlfriend said that he was out of breath after running from Zimmerman. Right, so a young football player after having sprinted (if he did run) a block is out of breath, and out of shape Zimmerman easily catches and confronts him. I don’t think so. Tell that one to his football coach!
Zimmerman was out of breath also. SA, neither one of us were there. Let’s let the case be tried in the courtroom.
When you interject comments like that into the conversation, you show your bias.
Smoking weed may have affected his lung function. Actually for anyone paying attention, this case has turned about as scary as arming the drones flying over the US. In response to the complete lack of evidence against Zimmerman, the FBI was reportedly looking into hate crime charges.
More speculation. How about those facts? As a parent I find it terrifying that you can lose a 17 year old for 3 days and not have someone call you. There never seemed to be any fact finding. Dead kids don’t dispute facts. As a parent, that should scare you.
I can see that Team Zimmerman is still suited up….ready to play ball!
Bias, has nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with common sense. A young football player is not going to be out of breath after running a short distance as his girlfriend (who wasn’t there either) stated to the investigators. She is trying to make Zimmerman out to be the one who ran down Martin and confronted him. She basically is trying to support the biased claim that Zimmerman ran down Martin and shot him like a dog. I’m saying that in a foot race that wasn’t possible, as Martin should have been able to easily out run Zimmerman, and he had a lead to begin with. Zimmerman lost sight of Martin which supports my contention.
SA, listen to yourself. You sound like Mr. Howler. He makes up his own scenes as he goes along.
Let’s just let the jury hear the evidence, for heavens sake. Neither you nor I were there.
Yes, it is bias. That’s what bias is–by definitition.
White on black … hate crime. Black on white … simple assault. Go figure!
Why say that, SA? Whaat was Zimmerman doing out there in the first place? That is going to be what hurts his case. He very well might have had to struggle for his life, but why was he there?
Was Zimmerman charged with a hate crime? I must have missed that.
Which “speculation” are you referring to? The “speculation” contained in the autopsy report? The “speculation” reported by Orlando local news? Would you recognize facts if you saw them? You’re kind of left-leaning, you know!
The evidence that will be presented to the jury. Don’t tell me the autopsy told how Zimmerman and Martin were both breathing. That sounds like an odd fact to find in an autopsy report.
Did the autopsy report that he was left in the morgue for 3 days without contacting his parents? Again, strange to find that in an autopsy report.
What fact is it you wanted me to take note of? I don’t read autopsy reports because I don’t have the medical training.
Would you know an open mind if you saw it? Would you ever admit there was something you didn’t know? didn’t think so.
I would like to retract the last two sentences…..they were not necessary. Hate when I do that.
I think I will keep mine. Fair is fair.
What was Zimmerman doing there?
The only one that knows is Zimmerman.
But, it APPEARS that he was attempting to be a good citizen.
But, we don’t KNOW anything so let the courts do their work. That said….2nd degree murder? Really? At most…manslaughter.
I don’t know what it is in Florida. I agree. The only one who knows is Zimmerman.
Sometimes people butt in. They see themselves as being indepensible while everyone else sees them as just a PITA.
My only desired outcome is that he get a fair trial.
I have to assume we’re not even talking about the same thing here.
What are we talking about? I have forgotten. @slow
Here is how I see it. It is a tragedy for everyone, especially Trayon and his family. I also have empathy for George Zimmerman. I imagine, if he could go back in time, he would NEVER have gotten out of his car.
Here is what I think happened. Zimmerman saw this person who was not known to him, “skulking” about in his gated community. Instead of allowing the police to deal with his concern, he chose to insert himself in a role he did not belong, law enforcement. He got out his car, probably with his gun out in the open, and Trayvon panicked, I know I would have! A fight for his life ensued, he went after Zimmerman believing he was being threatened with a deadly weapon, and we know the rest of the story. At stupid tragedy.
I agree that the failure of the policeto notify the parents for three days was unforgivable. That was probably the main factor that led to extreme emotions and accusations of racism. Sadly I have come to expect incompetence in government, but nevertheless this issue should be investigated. With all the publicity related to the case, there is probably a good chance that the failure to notify will be “forgotten.”
Other than proper notification, what else do you think should have been done? I believe that Zimmerman may have been charged in part to appease the parents and their supporters. Alan Dershowitz has been very vocal in his criticism of the prosecution. So it is understandable why there was no immediate arrest.
Kelly, I agree that the 3 days is unforgiveable. Once something is bungled that badly, its hard to recover.
Let’s face it, our law enforcement is government and I do expect better. Private security is far worse.
Frankly, I don’t know what I want done. I would have preferred that these parents weren’t left in the dark and someone who killed their son just sent home. I can’t imagine their frustration and feelings of hopelessness.
Go back to that night. The news reported some rather unorthodox transactions…we shall see.
That’s why there are trials. It’s easy to second guess.
Alan Dershowitz has a nickname with me and its not very attractive.
When is the trial supposed to start?
“He got out his car, probably with his gun out in the open, and Trayvon panicked, I know I would have!”
That’s not supported by facts and as both the autopsy report and indictment indicate a physical struggle occured. If a man comes to me with a gun in the open the last thing I’ll probably do is move towards him and engage in H2H combat. Assuming that a firearm was carried out in the open the fact that he didn’t shoot Martin at range shows it wasn’t murder.
The autopsy also shows single GSW, just left of center chest, right through the heart, front to back. Intermediate range with 2″ stippling, so figure a foot or 2 away. No other wounds besides a small laceration on his left hand knuckle. What that tells us is that Martin had no defensive wounds and that Martin was hitting Zimmerman with enough force that he injured himself…
The case may not make it to trial.
Don’t quit that day job. The question remains, why was Zimmerman approaching him and who was standing whose ground? I wasn’t there but….that question comes to mind. Was Treyvon standing his ground? Why did Zimmerman get out of his vehicle? Will that have bearing on the case and should it?
The sad thing is, this should be a case, and a national dialogue, about stand your ground laws. Instead it was flamed out into a race based issue. And a certain segment of our left seemed to want to lynch the guy.
The President DID contribute to that. He did his amateur hour thing again and let his bias show inappropriately. Not for the first time.
No heros in this. It’ll be mildly interesting to me to see what the evidence tuirns up. It’s such a shame that our media, acting on our own collective appetites, chose to OJ Simpson this and give us all an issue to polarize around.
I don’t berudge the prosecutor’s original actions. It’ll be hard to get a conviction. Zimmerman’s story seems credible, on a cursory level. I also don’t begrudge the family their anger at Zimmerman originally not being charged. Now that the case is so prominent, hopefully we can eventually get a decent sense of what happened and who was the aggressor.
I can’t think of anything the President said that was inappropriate or that called for anything other than fact finding.
marinm’s post above seems logical. To me the best chance we have at a definitive picture of this is to figure out who is yelling help on the 911 tape.
Not sure how you actually do that. I did hear that there is no recording of Treyvon.s voice, even on his cell phone. Isn’t that weird?
It seems to me Martin family and friends are keeping evidence away from the world. There was something on his facebook page about “swinging on a bus driver”, and no one has explained that.
WAS Zimmerman approaching him?
Zimmerman MAY have been following him. At an unknown distance. We also only have Z’s story on why he got out of his car.
“I can’t think of anything the President said that was inappropriate or that called for anything other than fact finding.”
Rather than look up his exact quote, I’ll paraphrase it.
“The victim looked like me and my family and friends. So this case is especially important to me and to my piolitical base. And so, rest assured that I will aggressively prosecute any crimes that my race-obsessed Attorney General can conceive of as happening here, moreso than I would if Martin had been white or Zimemrman black. Also, I’d like to use this opportunity to remind white people of their history of brutally oppressing black people, and to remind black people that we are all potential victims if a white man with a gun takes exception to our hoodie. Thank you and goodnight.”
@Rick, he reached out to the parents. He said if he had a son, Treyvon would have looked like him. He was trying to reach out. I don’t think he was being racial. Not this time.
We will have to disagree on that one.
Then he threw packets of skittles out to a throng of indoctrinated young people, and gave Rush Limbaugh the finger.
and gave his wife the secret Black Panther “fist bump” signal that Reverand Wright taught them.
which is code for Bill Ayres to plant a bomb somewhere.
And he and Henry Gates sat and laughed about it, over a beer.
The facts for Trayvon are clear also. He was walking with skittles and an iced tea to his dad’s girlfriends house, he is followed by a stranger, the stranger gets out of his car, he is probably very nervous, he may or may NOT have seen the gun, but in any event, an innocent kid is dead people.
I am confused here. Don’t most of you people have children? If my kid was being followed by some strange man, I would absolutely make sure he knew to be apprehensive. In what WORLD does a stranger follow you NOT constitute serious concern or fear? Zimmerman was following Trayvon people, not the other way around.
“I am confused here. Don’t most of you people have children? If my kid was being followed by some strange man, I would absolutely make sure he knew to be apprehensive. In what WORLD does a stranger follow you NOT constitute serious concern or fear? Zimmerman was following Trayvon people, not the other way around.”
Feeling apprehensive and engaging in physical combat with a person are two different things. I can understand feeling fear for being followed. That’s rationale. It however is not rationale to confront someone in a physical altercation. A prudent person would’ve used the cell phone and called 911. A prudent person would’ve run to an area with more people. A prudent person may have even stopped at a distance and yell “I SEE YOU, STOP FOLLOWING ME!!”
What would a normal person do in that situation?
Mind you, following someone is not in itself illegal or wrong.
Following someone is not by itself an indiciation of a bad act.
And of course this is all built on the assumption that Martin was being followed.
“Was Treyvon standing his ground?”
I have to ask. Are you then ok with Stand Your Ground? If it was Martin that was standing his ground – are you now for it?
“Why did Zimmerman get out of his vehicle?”
Even if he did – what’s illegal about that? What did Zimmerman do preceding the incident that was illegal? I can argue that it was a tactical error but I can’t argue that it was not supported by law.
Too bad most 17 year olds are missing the prudent gene.
If what we know about Zimmerman getting out is true, he should have been minding his own business. Had he not been Mr. Helpful, this might have not happened.
Now that I have shot off my mouth….I guess it will all come out during the trial. We don’t really need a trial. We can all go act right now on what we know to be the truth.
“Zimmerman was following Trayvon people, not the other way around.”
Zimmerman’s story is that the kid attacked him and was bashing his head into pavement (I think). Following someone, especially when you’re in a neighborhood watch rrole, doesn’t constitute a threat much less an excuse to attack. Not that I’m saying that’s what happened.
Zimmerman has said he wasn’t doing neighborhood watch that night.
One or the other of them was yelling “Help me” and trying to attract attention. that person is probably the victim here. I hope that we someday figure out who it was, and puit this case to bed.
Does everyone agree with me that if Martin were white, or Zimmerman black, this isn’t a big story?
It probably would not have gotten to be as big. Why is it big? the parents couldn’t get any answers that gave them closure. See first part of thread.
No, actually. I think it is a big story because a teenager who was walking home is now dead and another young adult will have blood on his hands forever. I could care less what color they were.
Marinm,
Trayvon, per the testimony of his girlfriend, TRIED evading Zimmerman. Zimmerman kept following him. What you talking about?
Furthermore, you have no idea if Trayvon saw Zimmerman with a gun or not before the altercation. No one knows that but Trayvon and he’s dead at 17. I don’t understand you people, I really don’t. If Trayvon had been up to no good, maybe some of this tragedy would make sense, but he wasn’t, he was walking home. Were it NOT for the actions of Zimmerman, he would still be alive. Zimmerman was the pursuer, not the other way around and I cannot fathom that if YOUR child were being followed by a stranger, you would not have given the parental advice to use self defense if you believe you are being threatened. No one will ever know what really happened, but for sure, the death of a teenager walking with skittles should not go unnoticed in my opinion.
Rick,
In our neighborhood we actually hire police to patrol during various times. We have had major issues with trespassers at the top of our community engaging in illegal behavior. We were told specifically by the police, DO NOT approach a vehicle. Call them immediately, for the protection of everyone.
And no Marinm, I am not ok with stand your ground. What wild west stupidity is that? There is appropriate self defense laws in this country I believe. Although I completely disagree with having firearms in bars, that is ludicrous. I would like to know, what allowed Zimmerman to believe he was capable of approaching someone, assessing a situation, and behaving as though he were law enforcement?
“No, actually. I think it is a big story because a teenager who was walking home is now dead and another young adult will have blood on his hands forever. I could care less what color they were.”
I think the reason for the question is.. There are a LOT of kids dying in Chicago. Everyday. And we don’t hear a word of it in the national news unless is more than 20 in one night.
“Trayvon, per the testimony of his girlfriend, TRIED evading Zimmerman. Zimmerman kept following him. What you talking about?
You left out a key detail. Even assuming he was being followed. Following someone is not illegal. Following someone is not in itself an overt act of violence. It’s not even an indication of a threat of violence.
Let me put it this way. If Martin was being followed by Zimmerman and Martin in fear of his life had pulled a handgun and killed Zimmerman would you be ok with that? You are proposing that being followed is sufficient cause for the use of lethal force. So, are we then ok with saying that shooting someone for following a person to closely is an affirmative defense? Again, what would a common man do in Martin’s shoes.
HOw many? I want an exact count. How many in LA are dying needlessly? NYC?
Followiong someone most certainly CAN be illegal. In this case, I doubt if it was. Someone mentioned prudent a while back. Is it prudent to stalk a teenager? We know he was following from the 911 tape. We know he was told to stop doing that. We know he thought Treyvon was getting by with something.
Marin, to answer your question….NO I wouldn’t want Zimmerman killed either. No one needs to stand their ground.
Keep pushing the wild west mentality. The American people will get tired of it and will vote people out of office who encourage it. We don’t live in the wild west. I look forward to the day.
We do not have bars in Virginia.
“I would like to know, what allowed Zimmerman to believe he was capable of approaching someone, assessing a situation, and behaving as though he were law enforcement?”
Maybe the fact that there is nothing illegal with it? He wasn’t charged with impersonating a police officer. He wasn’t charged with anything outside of Murder. So, I fail to understand your point but am open.
Define “bar.” We don’t technically have stand alone bars because the amount of food sold must equal liquor sales. Other than that, for all practical purposes, we have bars, within restaurants.
@Moon-howler
“According to FBI and Department of Defense data, 5,056 people have been murdered in Chicago since 2001, compared with 1,976 total U.S. deaths in Afghanistan since 2001. Chicago’s murder rate even outpaces total NATO coalition fatalities in Afghanistan since 2001 by a difference of more than 2,500 killed.”
Here is a link to the homicides. https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Ara-YVofdq9jdHBlal9OaGhWUDFsbkNFbkpraV9tS3c&output=html
“Followiong someone most certainly CAN be illegal. In this case, I doubt if it was.”
Then why bring up the point? He wasn’t charged with stalking. He wasn’t charged with impersonating. I fail to understand the point here. The simple question is (assuming) he followed Martin did he break a law doing so? Even if he were told not to follow and did follow — that still doesn’t mean he broke a law. If he did – why wasn’t he charged with that?
“No one needs to stand their ground.”
Does that include police officers? What about a 19 year old woman with a newborn child with two home invaders? No one is very definitive…
In your list of “facts”, you left out the THC they found in his system. So his judgement may have been clouded due to illegal drug use. You throw around the word innocent pretty loosely.
@Moon-howler
I could not find ‘bar’ in http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+4.1-100
Feel free to also look at 18.2-308 and see a listing or definition of ‘bar’.
@marinm
NO Republican what abouts….lets deal with the issues here at hand, not a deflection.
Home invasion is covered. Of course cops need to be able to do their job. If you need to “stand your ground” then do it but don’t cry over it after you have gone out looking for trouble.
Could you have selected Chicago because that is the home city of the President? Why not Los Angeles? They have a horrible crime rate also.
@marinm
I am more than familiar with the state’s bullcrap. Mother of bartenders here.
“NO Republican what abouts….lets deal with the issues here at hand, not a deflection.”
I do not understand this statement.
“Home invasion is covered.”
But you said no one. I’m not putting words in your mouth. You said no one and I provided two examples by which you agree with me that those people should be afforded the ability to stand their ground.
Chicago is my go to example because of McDonald v. Chicago. Chicago is a “gun-free zone” and the spreadsheet that I liked you shows how many homicides occur in the gun-free zone of Chicago. I think its unfair to attempt to attribute my use of Chicago because it’s the home of the POTUS. I could honestly care less where his hometown is.
Back to the topic. You have one guy with wounds across his head and body and another guy without any defensive wounds what so ever and a a single GSW to the chest at close range. What does this tell a layman?
That should have read no one needed to stand their ground on that specific case/incident. I was obviously talking about specifics, not making a general statement. Different encounters call for different reactions.
What we don’t need is a bunch of hot dogs thinking they can shoot their way out of any encounter or people being emboldened by the fact that they are packing heat.
You cannot pull out facts in isolation. You have to go back out to why Zimmerman was after him. That will be done during the trial.
I am growing wearing of repetition.
It’s always interesting listening to a debate that centers around “if it was me, I would …” or “a reasonable person would have …” to fill in the blanks surrounding a specific event that none of the debaters witnessed and involving people none of the debaters know. What I believe from having been around the criminal justice system and in the military is that no one really knows what he or she would do in a particular unexpected stressful situation until actually faced with the situation. Some end up doing a lot more than they ever thought possible and others end up doing a lot less.
I think your words are about the most honest assessment I have heard all day. None of us knows really unless we have been trained for specifics. Even then, do we really know until the time comes?
“What I believe from having been around the criminal justice system and in the military is that no one really knows what he or she would do in a particular unexpected stressful situation until actually faced with the situation. Some end up doing a lot more than they ever thought possible and others end up doing a lot less.”
And yet everyday we ask juries and jurists to do just that — and it mostly works.
@marinm
I have to disagree for two reasons. First, jurors are not instructed to determine guilt or innocence based upon what they think they would have done. Second, when they do make a decision it’s after they’ve had the benefit of hearing the evidence, listening to the arguments, and being instructed on the law.
@Morris Davis
Aren’t jurors instructed to make a determination based on what a reasonable person would do in that situation?
I do have a question for you and am willing to get the answer offline if you so desire – what is your feeling and belief on jury nullification?
@Morris Davis
I can tell you with 110% certainty that if I see someone following me with a gun I’m going to run like hell.
@Cato, maybe not…if they had your child. There are too many variables in life for me to go out on a limb. I know there are lots of things I would like to say I would do….but would I? I hope I never get to test it.
I do believe that some people are influenced very much by the media’s publishing pictures of Martin from years ago with a baby face.
I don’t know what happened … I welcome investigation. There is a 911 tape with a scream on it that should shed light on what happened. Is it possible that Martin attacked Zimmerman? Well, one of his friends mentioned on Twitter that he had “swung on a bus driver”. he was being suspended from school repeatedly and involved in burglary. His handle on Twitter was NO_LIMIT_N**GA. I’d say let’s keep our mind open to the possibility that he was the aggressor. Most 17 year olds wouldn’t be that aggressive, but maybe he indeed was. As to his girlfriend’s testimony, I’d like to hear it from her own lips on a witness stand, not as reported third-hand from possibly unreliable sources, before I take it as truth that he didn’t attack Zimmerman.
I believe that was pretty much the theme of this thread….keep an open mind and let’s wait until the facts are in. You can see how far THAT got me.
I actually feel horrible for both families and for George Zimmerman. I am devastated for the Martins. How can anyone not look at Zimmerman’s face and see the vulnerability..now? My problem with guns has always been that they are instant. Lives can be washed out in the blink of an eye. Does that mean I want to get rid of guns? No, of course not. However, every once in a while I think we Americans need to have a good come to Jesus meeting about what guns can really do.
I have probably told you that one of my best friend’s sons in in prison for 10 years and he is lucky it is only 10 years.Tom (an alias) was a gentle giant of a man. He stayed to himself He had some close friends but wasn’t a party boy. The family is far from a trash family. I could name drop about who attended my friend’s wedding and you would be impressed with the guest list. She drives down to the prison and gets frisked monthly just like the commoners. Tom shot his sister’s significant other–deader than a door nail. No one even knew Tom owned a gun. Now one family has no son. My friend’s family has children growing up without a father, a son in prison, and a young woman in the position of a widow. It all happened in a nano second, before anyone knew Tom even owned a gun. BANG! You’re dead. Just a nano second of horrible decison-making that can never be taken back or undone.
None of us know what we would do. Moe Davis is right.
The thing is…. “Stand Your Ground” is not being used as a defense.
Zimmerman was already in a fight when he shot.
Stand your ground does not apply. Self defense laws apply. I’m just surprised that the charge is Murder 2 and not manslaughter.
He was originally released, or so I thought, because of the stand your ground defense.
Question, are neighborhood watches carried out only in a vehicle, or are some done by small groups of individuals walking the grounds? Just because someone chooses to observe on foot what someone is up to doesn’t automatically mean that they also want to confront, and because they are on foot doesn’t automatically make them the aggressor should a confrontation occur. If you go down stairs because you heard a strange noise at night, and a burglar confronts you that doesn’t make you the aggressor now does it?
I think most neighborhood watches encourage a buddy system.
I also think it depends on what you do while on foot. Do you actively persue a person rather than letting the police handle it?
I think that is Zimmerman’s problem. He called the dispatcher. He should have felt his job was over.
Moon, in your #66 post you make some very good points about the guns, but you have to ask yourself this question. If Zimmerman didn’t have a gun that night would he have been the one who would have wound up at the morgue? If that answer is yes, then Zimmerman walks, and rightly so.
We could make what ifs all night and still not know. Would Zim. been emboldened to leave his car? Would Treyvon felt threatened? Would he have felt it was life and death?
Guns have a way of escalating a situation from danger to matter of life and death.
My personal opinion is that there are just too many cowboys out there who I don’t totally trust to be exercising their 2A rights.
In my life I have seen an awful lot of tragedy up close and personal. It didn’t necessarily happen to me but it was around me. It definitely makes you stop and think.
I also would not hesitate to carry a weapon if I lived in my old neighborhood from 35 years ago or if I had reason to go into an area that wasn’t safe. That’s another story. I sure wouldn’t be waving anything around. That just begs for problems.
Great points Moon. Knowing you have a lethal weapon on your body gives a sense of security that may, in untrained hands, embolden someone to do something they may not ordinarily do.
I don’t think George Zimmerman is a horrible person, I do however think he did created an avoidable situation by his own actions. Had he simply let the police handle his concern about a strange person in the neighborhood, Trayvon would be alive and his life would not be ruined. What a stupid waste.
Then there is a question of when does someone else exercising what they think are their 2A rights infringe upon my rights? I don’t think the cowboy mentality thinks or cares about that aspect of it. Perhaps I am more sensitive to it in Northern Virginia.
When I was down in the Northern Neck where my parents lived for a number of years, people were a lot more considerate. Hunting etc was a way of life and I rarely ran into people who felt they had to prove something like up here. Now…you didn’t want to let hunters on your property because they got liquored up and there were more than a few hunting accidents where someone shot themselves. No one every hears about those, do they?