Is gun safety an oxymoron? For years we have been hearing that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Trying telling that to the 4 year old boy who shot himself in the head over in Dale City. The gun he used was work related. The gun owner was a security guard and he/she made every attempt to lock the vehicle. The child apparently crawled in the back of a pick up rear window.
Reading on, I see that a man was shot in the head at Dennys and drove himself to the hospital. Still another person, a woman, was shot at Hooters. The shooter was charged with discharging a firearm.
Why on earth are all these people packing heat to go to local restaurants? Yes, I have a problem with guns in restaurants.
Yet another woman over off the Prince William Parkway was awakened in the middle of the night by a large BANG. She called police who found a bullet lodged in her kitchen cabinet. I guess that was her wake up call.
Law enforcement always wants to charge people and punish them for events that have already happened. How about an ounce of prevention rather than this perpetual legal mop-up all the time. I am tired of mop up and I am tired of bumper sticker slogans. Both are equally stupid and don’t get to the crux of the matter.
Did I have to search for these cases? No. Not at all. I looked at our local paper, insidenova.com for the past week and found the stories, just browsing. Actually I noticed a theme–too many people are being injured by guns. Am I suggesting rounding up everyone’s guns? No. Never. I am saying that too many people are being harmed with guns and we need to have a meaningful discussion about gun use that doesn’t involve the NRA and its political myopic stance. We need to talk about gun safety, where guns should be allowed and who should have access. We need to discuss what kinds of guns we allow in allow in our society. We need to incorporate these discussions with talk about mental health and rights of privacy. Somewhere, something is going to have to give.
The orange haired killer in Colorado had a psychologist/psychiatrist who was so disturbed by him he notifed the campus law enforcement. However, they didn’t notify authorities in Aurora, where this “joker” lived. Well, why should they? It sounds like a good way to get sued to me. We need to give immunity to agencies who in good conscience, alert others to potential danger from mentally disturbed people. We can’t always wait until someone “does something” because then it is too late.
Its time that the guns rights people stopped trying to shout down or ridicule those of us who have safety concerns about gun ownership. Some of us don’t believe that the right to bear arms is without limits.
Politicians should take care of this problem, shouldn’t they? Are you putting pressure on your politicians at all levels of government to impose those limits you speak of! It’s not too late!
I have a problem with guns in restaurants, too.
Especially when a gunman knows he can hold everyone inside hostage, and pick off as many as he wants, because no one else is armed.
Has that ever happened to you, Emma? Do you really trust “everyman” to defend you? I sure don’t. For all I know, “everyman” could make matters much worse. Or, you could get shot at Dennys or Hooters by some “everyman” packing heat.
You sure have drunk the kool aid. I just think its time we start talking about these things.
I like the picture above. That’s a rather nice collection. Or, should I say – it’s a good start! 😉
Funny story. I called up USAA to ask about umbrella insurance – based on the wise and sage counsel of Censored. So we talked about the policy and I asked a simple question. If an intruder broke into my home and I had to put a round through him — will this protect me?
YES! That’s what this policy is designed for sir.
God Bless USAA. 🙂 $1M policy for $15/month. Legendary!
What do you call that kind of insurance? Would it protect you outside your home or off your property?
Buffalo Wild Wings has a sign forbidding guns inside. It’s private property, and I comply by not eating there. I wonder what the bad guys would do when they see that sign. Do they look at each other, crestfallen, and exclaim: “Oh, man…..NOW what do we do?”
Pardon me if I don’t think my salvation rests on you packing heat.
That is a nice collection. Wheel guns are real guns!
@Moon-howler
Umbrella insurance. Yes protects me from libel, slander, an other liability claims.
More people are killed and injured everyday care driven by intoxicated and distracted drivers, than are killed by intentional and accidental firearms discharge. The act of driving a car carries with it a high degree of responsibility. So does carrying or owning a firearm. In some cases, a driver attempted to do everything correctly (sober, observing the speed limit, observing road conditions), and an accident occurs which results in someone’s injury or death. Sometimes a gun owner tries to do everything correctly, and a tragedy still occurs. Sometimes there is negligence involved in driving or handling a firearm. In these cases, there should be penalties commensurate with the level of negligence determined. Sometimes, there is malicious intent, such as drag racing, driving on a suspended/revoked license, etc. or possession/use of a firearm by a felon or in commission of a crime. In these cases there should also be penalties, commensurate with the conduct. Guns aren’t the issue here anymore than cars are, in these cases. What is at issue is conduct and behavior. That is what needs to be addressed.
@Marinm
Is it a rider on another policy or what?
@Moon-howler
It generally covers liabilities beyond what homeowners or auto insurance cover. Perhaps a policy holder would have to exhaust that (homeowner’s coverage and auto coverage) before it would kick in. Maybe not. It probably depends on the company. I think most companies want you to have the other policies with them as well.
Still it’s better to see in writing that a policy would cover shooting an intruder. Perhaps Harry Homeowner can’t be the initiator of an intentional act and still be expected to be covered. The lawyer also will probably represent the insurance company and not necessarily the homeowner if their goals conflict. It’s best to get your answer in writing and not from a salesman. Many gun blogs discuss this issue of insurance and liability in the event of a home break-in and there seems little confidence that the homeowner can be guaranteed to escape unscathed financially.
Umbrella policies can be useful but their coverage shouldn’t be taken for granted. It’s also probably best for Harry to keep a low profile when it comes to his love of guns.
MH
I had to raise my limits on my auto and home but the cost was marginal for those policies.
I’m very happy with the policy.
@Steve Thomas What is at issue is conduct and behavior. That is what needs to be addressed.
Thank You Steve, This is the first time in any discussion that I’ve seen anybody recognize the problem!
I answered Steve and the damn software ate my response. Has anyone else had a problem posting here with computer eat?
Sorry, I am very behind as I was out of the state.
Censored, from my policy.
Intentional Acts: Provides coverage for intentional acts if in the defense of a person or property.
Personal injury endorsement: Clarified only non-malicious intentional acts are covered. Added exclusion for internet-related libel and slander.
My homeowners policy was already at 300K liability and the new policy is just a rider on my existing homeowners. My auto policy had to go up from 100/300 to 300/500. All in all I think its costing me about $18/mo for the policies.
Interestingly they kicked me into underwriting because my wife had a Seat Belt violation. I explained that she was prego with our twins and removed it because she felt in pain and did so right when the PoPo turned his head to look at her. I did the math and for me to fight the civil penalty would’ve cost more than just paying the fine and taking the 0 point violation for her.
But don’t you worry pumpkin. I use hollowpoints so as to avoid going through my neighbors shared walls. 🙂
@marinm
But don’t you worry pumpkin. I use hollowpoints so as to avoid going through my neighbors shared walls.
Good! I’d hate to see you blast up the neighbor’s plasma tv or art collection!
It dawned on me that I was being unfair in thinking that most homeowners have the advantage that we have – the ability to get outside quickly from any room in our house. I’ve lived in a townhouse too and only had a flimsy ladder to escape from a third story window…but no guns at the time. They came later – gifts from my father who thought I’d chosen a crime-ridden are in which to live.
A carpenter on our remodeling job once asked me if I wanted to sell one of the guns. I asked how he knew we had any and he said,”we live here too”. And he and his crew more or less had for a year or so.
@Censored
THAT must have been cozy.
@Steve Thomas
Well said.
@Moon-howler
Just a point. My carrying a weapon, or Marin’s carrying a weapon is not to protect you or Emma, or anyone else. It is to protect me and my family. It is not my duty to protect anyone else nor is it to seek out those doing harm. In fact, we could get in trouble for doing so. Just as a policeman does not have the duty to protect you, neither do we. We carry for our own protection. If our weapons are used in a negligent manner, we are responsible.
The main idea of the post in the first place was to establish a dialogue. How do you keep those types of things from happening?
I did answer Steve but the computer ate my response and I was too tired to do another. then I forgot.
Some gun enthusiasts want no restrictions on anyone. I say there is a happy medium and that there has to be some middle ground rather than the wild west where people get shot in parking lots and kids crawl into trucks to get at guns.
Interesting data from the ATF on NY (remember how they say VA is the source of the NY gun problem)
http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/trace-data/2011/2011-trace-data-new-york.pdf
NY “crime guns” (this is a broad definition as simple possession of an unregistered firearm is a crime) outpaced VA guns by 4:1. So, if nothing else NY has to fix its gun laws before it tries to point a finger at VA.
The VA data is interesting if only for the locations of guns traced (the pie chart looks like all the high crime areas of VA)
Cargo, welcome back.
Guns make it too easy for people to kill people. The WaPo had a recent article on a young man whose mother killed his father about four years ago. The article was about the teenager’s decision to pull back from committing suicide at the last moment and attempt through a youtube video to reach others with a message about a number of things but mainly about acceptance of differences. He and his brother and friends have launched a movement and the WaPo story is about their efforts.
We know the killer. What started from long-standing spats between spouses escalated after an angry screed was written on their driveway. Verbal arguments ensued and physical violence followed. Guns were too easily accessible and so one was used. One of these people should never have been licensed to own or be near a gun. But there was one in the house – probably because the other person could be licensed. This type of scenario plays out daily in the US – only it’s usually the wife, girlfriend or children who are the victims and not the husband or boyfriend.
These fatalities are in your town, your state, your neighborhood. How do you prevent them?
@Censored bybvbl
We can’t. Murder is illegal and it’s still done. Humans kill humans. It’s our nature.
@marinm
What do you suggest doing when one spouse is mentally ill – particularly with depression or a psychosis? Should there be a gun in the house? If the other spouse qualifies to own a gun, should he or she still have one in the house if the other spouse is mentally ill?
I don’t think a killing would have occurred in the above example without a gun. A person can run away, lock a door, call police, possibly wrestle a knife away from someone.
Are you saying that because murders occur there should be no gun limits?
@Censored bybvbl
“What do you suggest doing when one spouse is mentally ill – particularly with depression or a psychosis? Should there be a gun in the house? If the other spouse qualifies to own a gun, should he or she still have one in the house if the other spouse is mentally ill?”
If a household member wants a gun and they are not otherwise disqualified from ownership I see no valid reason for the state to intervene. You could say the same with Felons. Our courts have found that while a felon may be disqualified from ownership of a firearm the use of a firearm to protect life in self defense trumps the law that says they can’t be in possession of a firearm. That’s a common sense gun law.
“I don’t think a killing would have occurred in the above example without a gun. A person can run away, lock a door, call police, possibly wrestle a knife away from someone.”
I think you’ve watched too many movies if you think its simple to wrestle a knife away from someone. It’s also pretty bold to say that I – in your vision – am obligated to be in a position where I may have to fight for my life against someone that is armed when I am not.
Your suggestion also seems to me a lot like the argument people make about how women invite rape by dressing a certain way. Just because I can run doesn’t mean I must. If I have a reason to be somewhere – like my own home – why should I be forced by the law to run? Why can’t I stand my ground? I’m not inviting victimization. I am the victim.
“Are you saying that because murders occur there should be no gun limits?”
I’m saying that no matter how many laws you put in place people will find ways of killing each other. Removing guns will not solve anything except for taking away the defense of those that need it the most.
@marinm
I wasn’t clear. I’m referring to the example of spouses who share the same home when I say that a person could run away, etc. If there is distance between two people, there may be room to maneuver that a gun eliminates. If you think that shooting a spouse while there are two children in the home is a good idea as opposed to running out of the house, we’ll have to disagree.
Too many gun deaths are between related people. Children can find the household guns and often the keys to a gun cabinet. A mentally ill spouse can do the same. Paranoia about burglars shouldn’t trump common sense. None of my relatives has ever had a break-in though someone did try to steal gas from a family car once. Dogs and alarm systems seem to do the trick. Here’s a hint – sleep with your car keys next to your bed and use your car alarm if you hear a noise. Irritation to the neighbors will be cheaper than a trial. 😉
@Censored bybvbl
I think that Marin’s point is that the OPTION of keeping the firearm should be left to the citizen qualified to keep it.
If there is a mentally ill person in my home, I would secure any weapons or move them. I don’t want the gov’t preventing me from keeping them.
All of your suggestions are good. The weapon is just another tool. And just because it hasn’t happened to you or yours….does not mean that firearms have not been needed and used by others to defend themselves. My mother used her pistol to scare away a potential attacker who threatened to hit her with a brick. She did not have to shoot him. She just let him see that she had a pistol. She would have had no chance to escape otherwise.
We have to have a better way of screening out those who should not have weapons. That conversation cannot and must not be shut down.
My problem is, everyone thinks they are sane. I bet that Sikh shooter supremacist thought he was sane also.
BTW, What’s in the water at Littleton, Colorado? Page’s grandmother lived there.
Thread coming up about him after bocs meeting. Lots of stuff behind the scenes.
Right.
I can’t replace or provide common sense for anyone. People make bad and poor decisions all the time and it’s their right to do so.
I just don’t think it’s the govts place to try and make that decision for us.
For example, I disagree with a govt law that says I must lock up a pistol. But, being a father of two where one is now able to walk — my beloved arsenal is now locked up and no longer available in ALERT+5/Condition 0 (for the non-gun nuts, 5 seconds away from me with a loaded firearm with a round in the chamber ready safety off)
Cargo used an interesting example because that type of defensive use of a firearm is almost never logged/tracked by the Federales. A crime didn’t occur – it was averted and because the firearm wasn’t discharged we in the public domain don’t know that a life was saved because a gun was present.
I have 3 friends who are either gun nuts or married to one. All would tell me their kids know how to handle guns and to not touch blah blah…
All 3 have had near gun tragedies with their kids touching when parents weren’t home or aware, so glad you have yours locked up.
My son got a safe before his daughter was born for his. You can’t be too careful, for sure.
Kids just like guns. its probably like swearing to them.
Marin, I do think its govt business to protect young people because many have stupid parents. While you and my son might take every precaution, I promise you there are people out there who haven’t. They somehow think “don’t do it.” suffices or similar admonistions. Some might even think a child can’t reach something or doesn’t know that Mr. gun is hidden in a shoe box or the top of the closet, far out of sight and reach. Don’t ask me how…I don’t know.
Look at that little kid that broke into the back of that truck through the slide widow to stick a gun at his head. Of course,
But you are right, you really can’t force people to have common sense in most cases.
And all the laws in the world didn’t save that little boy. Sure we can punish someone after the fact (but really the loss of a child or family member usually is more than enough) but it doesn’t undue the damage.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcwebertobias/2012/07/27/unsafe-gun-safes-can-be-opened-by-a-three-year-old/
THIS is not good. THIS is why you a) keep the ammo and gun separate. B) train the kids C) satisfy their curiosity until they are BORED with the guns. I’m going to start having darling daughter clean the pistols soon.
OH, and attach the darn safe to the wall or floor.
Wow.
Thanks Cargo. I’ll email you SEPCOR.