There is some sort of love affair going on with some Republicans and Ayn Rand. I read Ayn Rand years ago during an era when selfishness was frowned on. During this time we were told not to ask what our country could do for us but what we could do for our country. It was a time when just 2 decade before, Americans had liberated Euope and discovered the horrors of the Holocaust. We were in the middle of sacrificing nearly 60,000 of our own in a far-off land called Vietnam, austensibly to stop the spread of communism.
Americans were still struggling for a nation that truly was one of equality, for blacks and for women. We are still working on those goals in some cases. That is the age I grew up in and the influences in social thinking around the time I read Ayn Rand. I must confess, I was horribly bored. I was more into books like To Kill Mockingbird. If you thought only of yourself you weren’t a good person and all of my generation went to bed being told to think of those starving children in ___(Indian, China Biafra, etc etc) rather than waste our food.
When did a little altruism get pushed to the back burner, only to be replaced by the glory of taking care of one’s self first. I saw it in the 1980’s. There is a marked difference between those who came of age in the 1980s and 90s and those who came of age in the 60’s and 70’s.
Ayn Rand offends me. Her story comes from extremes, from that start evilness that dominated her country for decades. It is not our story and it will never be. She is somewhat unAmerican in my world. All you John Galt wannabes—it is fiction. So Paul Ryan has a hero. There will be more…. Meanwhile, “Hey Boo” speaks volumes and “Spencers Mountain” captivates this baby boomer and both remind me of our social responsibilities.
I read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged when I was a high school sophomore. I thought they were sophomoric.
Greed is good. And Obama made it legal. 🙂
@Bubberella
I recall being bored. I can’t remember how old I was. I don’t think I read either of my own free will though.
Paul Ryan likes Ayn Rand, and that’s what you got? And here I thought the McDonnell Master’s thesis was weak! You do understand that most of these people are simply reacting to the sheer numbers of people who are only looking for what their country can do for them, right? I have not read Ayn Rand, no interest. I did, however, stay at a Holiday Inn express last night.
Why do you care that I am discussing her? Many of “your kind” rewally like her. I don’t see why. Does that bother you?
This is complicated. Conservatives have a strange relationship with Ayn Rand. She was an atheist and strongly pro-choice, but her views an rationality, reason and individuality resonate with economic conservatism. When Rand talks about “selfishness” she does not mean the conventional use of the word, but relying on one’s own judgement and reason “mind” rather than what the collective thinks. The philosophy is not a rationalization for greed in the material sense, but of elevating the individual mind and reason as the highest morality. Regrettably, there will be a lot of ignorant discussion of Rand from both sides, pro and con, from people who have never studied her seriously. Her philosophy of “Objectivism” can’t be understood from an evening’s reading any more than you can grasp Kant, Aristotle, etc. from the Cliff Notes.
I reject her atheism, but am a big fan. “The Fountainhead” is my all-time favorite novel. Women should also take note that among 20th century writers, she lead the way in creating strong female characters, both in “The Fountainhead” and “Atlas Shrugged”. I suggest strongly that both sides study Rand, her background, her philosophy, and her writings before discussing. Conservatives should know that she was an atheist, pro-choice advocate. Liberals should know that her philosophy is not so simple as a justification for greed. In fact, Rand’s views of selfishness, altruism and other topics are more oriented toward thought and intellectualism than anything material. Again, she is very complicated and people should study her before commenting. I know that Paul Ryan has.
Yeah, I read the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged as a high school sophomore too. They were indeed sophomoric and boring. The recent movies are boring as well. I held my nose and watched a couple of the stinkers because I wanted to see what the Teabaggers and other Einsteins were drooling over. I guess it’s the conservative male equivalent of “ooh, crown molding and granite countertops…”. (The same group-think that filled the 80s with a bunch of Gordon Gekko wannabes has returned to make many middle class mediocre males – and some females – think they’ll become masters of the universe. Age will take care of that delusion…particularly when they haven’t socked away the 2 million bucks in their private retirement accounts to ease them through a middle class old age.)
@Censored bybvbl
There’s been only one “Atlas Shrugged” movie so far. The second doesn’t come out until October, so I don’t know what you are talking about, unless you mean the movie of “The Fountainhead” that starred Gary Cooper 50 or so years ago.
Censored, you show the level of your intellect using terms like “teabaggers”. I suggest you go back and read the books again. I have never referred to President Obama or his supporters as “terrorists” themselves because they studied the works of Saul Alinski and other such luminaries.
I’ll be glad to engage in an intelligent conversion about this with you if you close to go that route rather than name-calling. I think that’s the tone Moon seeks for her blog.
If you didn’t like the books, fine. Perhaps you could structure your critique in a somewhat more well-considered tone?
Actually, you have pretty much indicated that the rest of us don’t have the gray matter to discuss Ayn Rand.
Different people have different tastes.
If I had to study a contemporary of Rand’s I find margaret Sanger to be a far more interesting character. However, to my knowledge she didbn’t write novels. I don’t think English majors like Rand nearly as much as social studies majors do.
I do know Censored and her intellect is one finely tuned machine. “Teabagger” is a self named group. We didn’t start the fire….I recall seeing people going around with tea bags on their hats, hanging as earrings, etc. Its sort of hard to turn off…and frankly, why should we? it isn’t even an official party.
I keep thinking about all the money I lost on that budget ceiling debacle and frankly, I have no patience with teaparty tactics. I also don’t want to hear how it had nothing to do with that mini crash. It had everything to do with it according to many people who have studied the economy, across many political spectrums.
NTK, don’t bring up Saul Alinsky. He’s become a sound-bite for the right – just like Ayn Rand. 😉 If you mention him, you have to throw in the right’s boogeymen – Karl Rove and Lee Awater.
I saw “Atlas Shrugged” and a couple fairly recent movies on Rand.
Since you’re familiar with matters monetary, what do you think is going to happen to all these middle class folks who don’t save 7-10% of their incomes each year or have a defined retirement account? It’s one thing to preach individual responsibility but it flies in the face of how Americans live – at least until the housing bubble taught a few people hard lessons. Looking at the make-up of the general population, how do you think they’ll fare under Rand’s philosophy? Who’s going to bail all these Randians out in 20-30 years when they haven’t saved enough on which to live well. I’m not talking about the under-employed, under-educated, the disabled, the lazy but the average person who currently lives a middle class or working class existance.
Two important issues are ignored or treated by sound-bites by our politicians and the MSM- 1) whether this country really can produce enough jobs so that everyone who wants one can have one and 2) how many people can save enough to retire using only private savings.
I read all three of her novels. Looks like its a club. NTK she was also against the Vietnam Nam war and supported efforts to repeals anti homosexual laws. Pro choice and against laws outlawing homosexuality. What’s left for an uncompromising Republican to like!
Although she claimed not to be a libertarian I think she was. Literary theories vary and will continue so. Although rejected by conservatives of her time she did support Goldwater in ’64…maybe because of his strong anti communist stance or maybe because Goldwater saw abortion as a personal choice and was very pro regulations to protect the environment. Another libertarian, Goldwater disliked the “religous bullies” influencing politicians against personal rights.
I have become more interested in Goldwater in recent years due to his conservative thought regarding individuals 🙂
Since we’re being literary (a good book club is hard to find) read Beowulf – good and evil….Hundreds of theories and non one is sure who wrote it.
Thanks for your input, Lyssa. Funny how people will select what they like and discard or ignore what they don’t like.
@Lyssa
You are absolutely correct.
I didn’t say that others here don’t have the intellect to discuss Rand. My point is that she is very complicated and does not lend herself to sound bite discussions. The Obama campaign’s video linked in this thread is an example. You need to understand her background, including atheism, pro-choice, pro-gay rights, etc. as well as her Objectivist philosophy, however.
I’ll acknowledge, as should everyone, that I pick and chose from what others say that with which I agree and disagree. I can’t name a single person with whom I agree or disagree completely. Even that survey we did not long ago showed me about 50% in agreement with Obama. Moon took a survey that showed her in strong agreement with Newt Gingrich on many things.
“Teabagger” is an insulting, derogatory term. I’m not a Tea Party member myself, but agree with them on many issues, and know many members. In my experience, they have been very nice, sincere people who just might not agree much with many of the posters on this blog. Also, there are some highly intelligent people in that organization. I’ve never used derogatory terms about President Obama or his followers, or liberals. I doubt that calling liberals or Obama supporters “communists,” or using the “N” word to refer to African-Americans would find favor in a polite discussion. “Teabagger” is in the same category of reference to others. Conservatives and Tea Party members should be accorded the same respect in civil debate that liberals expect.
Correction–on one or two things…regarding Newt.
I dont have much patience with the poor, put-upon “tea-bagger.” A self proclaimed name can’t all of a sudden turn into something that horrible, just because they found out there was another meaning. I still have a finely etched mental picture of all those people wearing teabags on themselves parading around. I know I didn’t hallucinate that image. I also remember August 2011 and watching my portfolio take yet another huge hit. The market was very spooked by the notion that our country could default on its debts. The brinkmanship maneuver by the “teaparty” members of Congress was dangerous and just plain stupid. I tend to hold grudges at groups of people who make me lose money. I just have grown weary of being told who I have to treat as a sacred cow.
I do not have to take some newly formed political group and treat it or its followers like they are something special. People that go around wearing tea bags dangling from their ears have to right to claim the high road. I don’t think teabaggers is worse than tea-jadist. Did I also leave out that the same group of people made a whole bunch of campaign promises about jobs, etc that they didn’t fill. It is real easy to sit back and criticize someone else. Sure I will hold them to their big mouth promoises, same as they held the Democrats to theirs. I doubt if the Republicans had won, if things would be much different either.
The teaparty types and Grover Norquest need to cool their jets. I don’t evemn think this is my fight but I have seen red, just like an old bull.
@Censored bybvbl
Do you think that you and I should be obligated to pay support to people who failed to save for their own retirement? I don’t mean the social safety net for impoverished or unemployed people. You and I would likely agree on most of that. You seem to be saying, correct me if I’m wrong, that middle class people who earn a decent living but spend too much on big houses they don’t need, cars, vacations, etc. instead of saving should somehow be bailed out by people like you and me, who have been more responsible.
Even if someone does not have a retirement plan at work, or a 401(k) plan, that are many savings and retirement tools available, including IRAs. Believe me; I know a lot about this. People just have to show responsibility for themselves and use them.
I have no opposition whatsoever to programs designed to help people who are unemployed through no fault of their own, or are suffering other hardships, as are many in the current Obama economy (OK, I couldn’t resist that one), or to provide aid to deserving children from low-income families.
However, here’s where the Ayn Rand in me kicks in overdrive. If someone has had opportunities to earn a good living, have a good income, etc., but failed to take responsibility for themselves and save, I feel no obligation to them whatsoever. My family lives a lifestyle now below our means so we can save for retirement and send our kids to college. How dare someone come to me and say that now I need to bail them out in retirement because they’ve been living it up? Sorry, but people have to deal with the consequences of their own choices. If that means they work until they are 80 while Mrs. NTK and I are enjoying our retirement, so be it. They had theirs and now it’s my turn.
People dare to come and want their Social Security? Something they paid into their entire working lives? yea, well how effen dare them!
I can’t believe we are having this conversation. I know people who were just about ready to retire who delayed that long awaited time because the rules changed after the crash of 2008. They played by the rules and woke up to find that retirement really did have to be postponed.
People come up short for many reasons. Some of those reasons are because that person was irresponsible. Other people might have just not had enough to save what was necessary. Maybe they didn’t live in fancy houses and take nice vacations. Maybe they just went to work and paid their bills. Censored and I seem to have a better grasp on this phenomena than most people on here. Could it be because we have been around long enough to see some of the pitfalls of life?
While everyone is measuring out SS, by the way, no one ever notes that interest earned on those dollars from back in whenever….40 years worth of compounded interest is no chicken feed.
Yea, those retiring have a right to expect that which was promised without the resentment being so obvious. Walk a mile and all that.
Left out a word:
or to provide college aid to deserving children from low-income families.
@Need to Know
I think that many Republicans and Libertarians think that the poor or unemployed are the great welfare cheats destined to suck the life out of our economy. Perhaps you and I see things differently – that the middle class may be making decisions which will leave them poor in the future. We’ve lived within our means and saved and can afford retirement. I want to know what all the Gordon Gekko wannabes are going to do to accumulate 2 million bucks worth of wealth – about what would give a family an income of $100,000 in retirement – if invested wisely. This problem of savings is really downplayed in our society. People had a sudden wake-up call when their mortgage equity went upside down. But, generally, it’s too late for many of these middle class and working class families to save enough.
People haven’t demanded enough of their employers because most employees are expendable. This problem will only grow as jobs move overseas and employees compete internationally. What awaits the average person in retirement, if he/she can retire at all? Right now, the solution – which isn’t a solution – is to hate government employees or unions who do have pensions rather than demanding pensions themselves.
You can pay for a social safety net or you can pay for an armed guard if things get ugly.
Teabagger is a term some members of that movement foisted upon themselves because they were ignorant of its other meaning. I toss it out there as an incivility aimed at a movement that wasn’t interested in civility at town hall meetings. I’m not stopping anyone from stating his/her opinion here as those thugs were stopping civil discourse at town hall meetings. Besides they seem to be just a bunch of cheapskates who don’t want to pay their share of society’s burden. I can understand stopping waste but I think they want to pad their own wallets at our expense – whether shorting infrastructure, parks, the arts, schools, airline safety, or any number of other things.
I should have just read ahead to what you said and saved myself some time and aggrevation. I agree with Cenosred and she said it a lot better than I did without cussing.
The Tea Party was hijacked and became Teabaggers?
@Censored bybvbl
“I think that many Republicans and Libertarians think that the poor or unemployed are the great welfare cheats destined to suck the life out of our economy.”
Of course, they are not. Nor are successful people sucking the life out of our economy, or benefiting disproportionately.
Even according to Obama’s own White House website, “the top 10 percent of American earners now earns 42 percent of the nation’s income, and when correctly calculated, pay about 50 percent of the federal income and payroll tax burden.”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/09/26/getting-facts-straight-americas-tax-burden
Ten percent of Americans pay fifty percent of the total income and payroll tax burden, which is higher than their share of earnings.
How much is enough? Is ten percent of the people paying fifty percent of the combined income and payroll tax burden not enough? Obama wants to increase it. The premise of “Atlas Shrugged” is that the creators and producers in the economy finally get fed up and go on strike. Reagan showed that such a premise is not unrealistic. Under Carter, the top marginal tax rate was seventy percent. Lowering marginal income tax rates, capital gains tax rates, etc. brought much more income back into the system and increased revenue. Raising it would have the same effect in reverse. Federal receipts during the Reagan years (in millions) are shown below.
1980-09-30 517112
1981-09-30 599272
1982-09-30 617766
1983-09-30 600562
1984-09-30 666438
1985-09-30 734037
1986-09-30 769155
1987-09-30 854288
1988-09-30 909238
1989-09-30 991105
These data are from the Federal Reserve; not a partisan group. The Reagan tax cuts worked. I wish the current administration would learn the lesson of the tax cuts from both the Kennedy and Reagan administrations. If you want to grow the economy and create jobs, you don’t raise taxes, especially in a recession or sluggish economy.
You certainly don’t raise taxes on the poor and middle class. On the other hand, you don’t fund 2 wars and stick in 2 new huge money gobbling programs (NCLB and the senior Rx) without finding some way of off-setting the costs of these 4 things. So…this is a case of trying to button your shirt. If you get the first 2 buttons off course, there is no chance of ending up in the right place at the bottom of your shirt. Taxes will have to be raised. Better to raise a little on those who can afford it.
I am going to projectile vomit if I hear or read ” job producers.” Where are the jobs? Job producers is something the Koch brothers invented to get us off the backs of the rich. Yea, I see old Mitt Romeny paying at a less tax rate than I do. What’s wrong with this picture?
Always entertaining to watch liberals discuss conservatism.
@SlowpokeRodriguez
So why don’t you discuss it – without doing a mere drive-by?
@Moon-howler
Some Tea Party people have worn teabags. Some of them used the term “Teabagger” inadvertently until they found out its alternative, obscene meaning. No Tea Party people use that term anymore. That term should now be relegated to sleazy people like Bill Maher from whom we expect such vulgar language. I’ve noted that Jon Stewart does not use that term, even though he disagrees with the Tea Party.
In short, anyone who understands what the alternative meaning of the “Teabagger” and continues to use it as a derogatory term is showing the same lack of civility in debate they accuse the Tea Party of showing, and even worse. Tea Party people might get rowdy at town hall meetings sometimes, but I’ve never heard them use obscene terms to describe those with whom they disagree.
I suggest that the term be added to the Moonhowlings banned list as are some other terms and words, and criticism of County employees.
That will not happen. Any groups that makes me lose money gets no special consideration. Perhaps they should have done more research.
I am not going to drop any language because some group uses an expression to describe something major yucky any more than I would stop talking about pearls or woodpeckers. They own the problem, not me.
I don’t even think it is lack of civility. it is using a name they don’t like being called. there is only one reason I don’t use the expression….ONLY one. That is because as a blog host, I want everyone here to feel welcome and we have 2 people who would describe themselves as tea party. What other people say….well…not my problem. I am not wild about Obamacare as a name for AHA either. I haven’t made it a trigger word nor have I declared it such.
@Moon-howler
Moon, you won’t have any problem finding Republicans and conservatives who agree with you that the Bush, Jr. administration was fiscally irresponsible. Let’s take that as given and move toward solutions. The solution is not reelecting a President who is even more fiscally irresponsible than Bush was.
Bush sure didnt do it alone. I will defend him on one thing. I never found him to be insincere.
Romney is ….I am not sure what Romney is. 5 years ago I liked Romney. He has had a make over. Be afraid.
I will say this. While I really HATE Paul Ryan’s politics, I will willing admit, he is no Sarah Palin. He isn’t Mr. Sound Byte. There is substance. It might not be substance I like, but its substance. Sarah has no substance.
That is a left handed compliment.
@Need to Know
As I said, I’ll use the uncivil term to remind people of the uncivil actions associated with the party and its interruption of town hall meetings….and its cost to our economy. I’d suggest that the party embrace it, use it proudly, and try to claim it as their own. That’ll take away the power! 😉
So—how are today’s thirty and forty somethings going to retire? Are they all planning on being that wonder boy or girl who will climb to the top? Are they hoping that the top 10% will trickle down jobs to them? (One of DH’s relatives managed to grab a top 400 spot once. He wasn’t producing jobs, just jingles and connections.)
Do all the Randians have a sufficient retirement built up or are they mainly young people spouting a bunch of hot air in the hopes that they’re not among the 90% of the population who have to actually make a budget?
Cargo did exactly that. He called himself a teajadist and that’s exactly what it did.
Where is that young rascal today? Cargo!!!!!!!! [looking around and south]
Your choice of accountant 🙂
And about 100 million bucks!
@Cato the Elder
What do you see out there concerning younger people and retirement? How many do you think will be able to retire on their private retirement accounts?
10% just isnt enough to save over 30-40 years. People still need social security.
@Censored bybvbl
Parents really need to start educating and preparing their kids to manage money at a young age. The problem is that most of them don’t seem to know how to do it 🙂
I think we have two basic problems – number one is that we seem to have people laboring under the delusion that SS and various safety net mechanisms will be enough to subsist on, and number two is that 70% of our economy is consumerism. We could have a whole different discussion about flooding the banks with cheap money so they can bet on oil and grain driving up prices so the middle class can’t save anything – hell I can draw you a straight line from loose money to income inequality, I just can’t understand why more people don’t see this.
Chew on this for a while – are we really better than animals? If you cage and feed an animal for ten years then decide to release it into the wild, do you think it would survive?
When people think they have a net, they have a diminished sense of urgency around preparing for retirement (aka the survival instinct). At the same time, we have a society that’s programmed us to believe that we all need to own our own homes, drive new cars, buy flat screens, own iPads, etc. and thus a lot of people who could have invested that money used it to buy piles of stuff instead.
Sure, I know that shit happens. It’s happened to me too, I blew myself up twice in my early days, and I’m sure it will happen again, but it’s something I’m prepared for. But I’m just a few days past 40 and if I needed to I could disappear tomorrow.
They way things currently stand, I don’t see a whole lot of people in their 30s and 40s that will be able to retire on private accounts. They have a couple of hundred thousand dollars, but that’s not going to cut it. The markets are very dynamic now, if you’re participating you really need to understand what you’re doing and bring your A game every single day. This world is not kind to those who think they’re going to go to their 9-5 job in the corner office every day and just ignore what’s in their portfolio until they hit 65. I’ve demonstrated before how easy it is to see tops forming and how to get out of the way, and I’m no rocket scientist. Each and every commentator on this board can do the same thing, easily. But you have to put in the work and make it one of life’s priorities.
And I guess that’s sort of a microcosm of what’s going on in our society at large. Fewer and fewer people are curious and want to learn about things. They’d rather watch Dancing with the Stars.
It’s sad, really. So yeah, I don’t hold out much hope.
M ost people don’t have that kind of skill set.
@Moon-howler
I agree that people need Social Security. There will be a generation clamoring for it in 30 years. I don’t see how most families with a couple kiddos, a mortgage, a $100,000 income and car payments can find a spare $2 million bucks to put away. College tuitions, hospitalizations, a job loss, a divorce, and many, many other things can eat away at savings accounts.
@Cato the Elder
I agree with most of what you’ve said.
Do you think your peers even have an idea of how far behind they are?
@Censored bybvbl
Not really, one thing I’ve noticed is that our minds are wired to effectively ignore facts that don’t comport to our worldview or that we really, really don’t want to deal with. The other thing I noticed is that recency bias is rampant. A lot of these people lived through the tech bubble of the late 90’s and fervently believe that the next one is right around the corner and furthermore they will all be the big big winners of the next decade. It doesn’t work that way, in fact if you consistently hit those home runs you’re taking on waaay too much risk. Hit singles, just get on base and work your plan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auVyi9lVYhA
Because I am on vacation and only brought tablets. Hard to type more than drive-bys on my ipad or my samsung galaxy tab. The ipad is better, but my 4 yr. Old wont stop watching Bugs Bunny on it.
@pokie
Bwaaahahahahahahahah Like father like son!
So you like ipad better? What will ipad do that galaxy tab wont?
I have the galaxy nexxus pphone (not the new one). I got it because of swype because I fumble finger.
Where is vacation?
We came to Myrtle Beach this year after 3 years of hanging with the retirees at Singer Island, FL. We thought the boys would enjoy the touristy stuff, and they did! I like the iPad better, but both have their strong points. I am wauting for Ice Cream Sandwich to be released for my Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.0 Plus.
I have it on my Samsung Galaxy Nexxus. Mine is not the brand new one but the one that came out last spring. I dont know what it does. I left you something in email. I hope you appreciate it. Big discount!!!
There’s a place for Rand’s perspective. It is worth hearing and considering.
And, Rush’s “Anthem” and “2112”, inspired by Rand, rock.
I haven’t read her books but I know that she’s a foremost champion of individualism and the belief that pride and ego and what builds and creates. Some truth there.
The aspect of Rand’s legacy that I would like to see reported more is the extent to which Alan Greenspan was a disciple of ‘Objectivism”, and was allowed almost unchecked to direct our economy towards craziness and collapse. At the end of his life he realized his/her philosophy wasn’t the answer to everything, and we all suffered for his zealotry and our government’s idiotic faith in him. very indirectly, AYn Rand helped to wreck our economy.