UPDATE: SEE BELOW
Sam Bacile apparently ignored history. He didn’t learn a thing from Salman Rushdie’s experience after he published “The Satanic Verses.” He learned nothing from others who have mocked Mohammad and faced death threats. Bacile ignored what has happened to others in the name of art and made a politically charged propaganda film that depicted the prophet Mohammad as a liar, a womanizer, a glutton and just about anything else unattractive that you can throw out. In other words, Bacile took every stereotype non-muslims have about those who practice that faith and threw it in his movie.
Bacile, an Israeli, apparently is shielded under our umbrella of rights, since many conservatives raced to defend his first amendment rights. The problem is, Americans died and others were put in harm’s way defending a non-American’s right to say what he wanted to say, regardless of how many other American ideals were tromped on.
An Israeli filmmaker based in California went into hiding after a YouTube trailer of his movie attacking Islam’s prophet Muhammad sparked angry assaults by ultra-conservative Muslims on U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three American members of his staff were killed.
Speaking by phone Tuesday from an undisclosed location, writer and director Sam Bacile remained defiant, saying Islam is a cancer and that the 56-year-old intended his film to be a provocative political statement condemning the religion.
Protesters angered over Bacile’s film opened fire on and burned down the U.S. consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi. Libyan officials said Wednesday that Ambassador Chris Stevens was killed Tuesday night when he and a group of embassy employees went to the consulate to try to evacuate staff as the building came under attack by a mob firing machine guns and rocket propelled grenades.
In Egypt, protesters scaled the walls of the U.S. embassy in Cairo and replaced an American flag with an Islamic banner.
“This is a political movie,” said Bacile. “The U.S. lost a lot of money and a lot of people in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we’re fighting with ideas.”
Bacile, a California real estate developer who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam’s flaws to the world.
“Islam is a cancer, period,” he said repeatedly, his solemn voice thickly accented.
The film cost approximately $5 million to produce. What was placed on the Internet was a trailer. About 100 others chipped in to produce the film.
All well and good, Sam Bacile or whatever your name is. Bacile shoots off his mouth, makes a tasteless film that I would find offensive on behalf of anyone’s religion, then hides behind our Constitution. He is a coward. He has left Americans dangling to clean up his mess. He has endangered American lives by his false bravado.
When the going gets tough, people like Ambassador Stevens, Sean Smith and two other Americans step up to the plate, along with other career diplomats. Those folks on the front lines are the real heroes.
Unfortunately, the cowards like Bacile go into hiding. In my opinion, he and Terry Jones can defend their own rights.
UPDATE: Thurday evening
Elena was all over this one. I found a site and ignored her. She was right. I was wrong. (Elena, savor the words, you won’t hear them often.)
Here is the latest. Apparently I had the wrong coward. From the washingtonpost.com:
A federal law enforcement official said Thursday that Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, 55, was the man behind “Innocence of Muslims,” a film denigrating Islam and the Prophet Muhammad that sparked protests earlier in the week in Egypt, Libya and now Yemen. U.S. authorities are investigating whether the deaths of U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans in Libya came during a terrorist attack.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss an ongoing investigation, said Nakoula was connected to the persona of Sam Bacile, a figure who initially claimed to be the writer and director of the film. But Bacile quickly turned out to be a false identity, and the Associated Press traced a cellphone number used by Bacile to a southern California house where Nakoula was found.
Bacile initially claimed a Jewish and Israeli background. But others involved in the film said his statements were contrived as evidence mounted that the film’s key player was a southern Californian Coptic Christian with a checkered past.
Nakoula told the Associated Press in an interview outside Los Angeles Wednesday that he managed logistics for the company that produced “Innocence of Muslims,” which mocked Muslims and the prophet Muhammad.
Ok, let’s beat up on this jerk for a while. This one has a criminal record for financial funny money deals. Why am I not surprrised?
I’m still shaking my head in disbelief at how much money we borrow from China every year to shovel into the pockets of these savages in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia, etc, etc, etc. We play with fire (for no good reason), we get burned, we can’t figure out why we get burned.
As far as hiding behind our Constitution, that’s why illegals risk it all to cross our border and drop an anchor baby. They use our Constitution against us. You love it then, but you don’t like it here? We’re not really surprised.
Don’t blame this guy for “inciting” morons to behave like animals. That’s like blaming an attractive woman for causing a rape.
@Rick,
I blame him for hiding and for cowardice.
Inciting, fighting words, aiding and abetting all are legal terms.
Rape rarely has much to do with attractiveness or unattractiveness.
The video was used as a pretext for murder. If not that video, they would have crawled all over the web looking for some other “offense” to avenge. A free people should not have to fear for their lives when they express their opinions, no matter how vile. These animals take full advantage of our sensitivities and fears. They will never be appeased.
Would you be willing to give those first amendments rights to a child pornographer? I would not. There are limits.
I have heard lots of people throw around the animal term. I guess my problem is, the epithets seem to lack parameters and fences. I am not really sure who we are talking about.
Its pretty easy to ‘otherize’ those storming an embassy. Where does it end?
Moon, I can’t even come close to agreeing with you on this one. Freedom of speech is what it is. There can be no exceptions. Muslims don’t get a pass just because so many of them are brutal, intolerant thugs. I know that most aren’t, especially in the U.S., so we don’t need to have that discussion.
We can’t say that freedom of speech applies to mocking of Christians, Jews, atheists, etc., but not to Muslims. I’m not defending the tasteless video about Muhammad; only the guy’s right to make the video.
Another peeve of mine is the way the media refers to Muhammad and Jesus. Both were actual, living historical figures. There’s little debate about that. Their divinity is a matter of faith. The media always refers to Muhammad as the “Prophet” Muhammad, acknowledging the divine nature bestowed on him by believers of the Muslim faith. Jesus is never referred to as “Lord” or “Savior” as Christians believe.
I’m OK with saying just “Jesus” in public debate in that I believe the media should remain neutral and report facts rather than faith, and I think separation of church and state is a key element of our freedoms. However, that standard should apply to all religious figures. When the media or anyone else refers to the “Prophet” Mohammed they are acknowledging Muslim believers’ faith. This is not consistent with a secular society and separation of church and state.
1. Who is giving Muslims a pass?
2. Do you mean all Muslims or do you mean embassy breachers?
3. Have I suggested that this imbecile be jailed? How about him just using the decent judgement and not doing what he has done?
4.That is Mohammad’s name. The Prophet Mohammad. Jesus Christ sort of explains that one. If you said Jesus someone might think he was …never mind. You do realize that there are many many people named Mohammad in islamic countries? In fact, it is the most common name in the world. Prophet Mohammad distinquishes that entity from all those other Mohammads.
So if you can’t agree with me are you stating that:
A. Bacile is not a coward?
B. We should die for foreign national?
C. its neat to make fun of other people’s religion and that we should be surprised when they get all pissed off about it?
Not sure I understand.
There’s the “otherize” thing again! Next thing you know we’ll have dopes on MSNBC saying that it was a group of Republicans that stormed the embassy and killed Stevens…and by doing so they were actually calling Obama an “N-word”.
@Moon-howler
Child pornography is not freedom of speech. It’s a crime. It involves minors who cannot consent to the activity. Pornography depicting consenting adults of legal age is not a crime, and is not illegal.
Yelling “fire” in a crowded theater is not freedom of speech. It’s a crime.
Sam Becile mocking Islam, and “South Park” and Bill Maher mocking Christianity and other religions are people expressing their beliefs, regardless of how offensive others may find them.
NTK,
Some pornography most certainly is a crime if it violates community standards.
Child pornography is a first amendment issue. Age has a huge impact on what is prosecuted and how hard. A 17 year old in an isolated case just isn’t going to pack the same wallop legally as a serial child pornographer with thousands of pictures of 8 year olds.
NTK, if you and yours want to go around defending the free speech of Jones and this filmmaker clown, have at it. I sure don’t want my family having to do it. I would throw them both under the bus in a NY minute.
You must not have looked at the trailer. it was a bit more than mocking.
How do you feel about Pat Robertson declaring that Katrina was sent because gays live in New Orleans? Yes, he is free to be a moron if he wants to be. I certainly feel he mocks Christianity though.
Why would we take any US code and apply it to those of another country? Why would I apply first amendment rights of the US to anyone from another country. Why would I judge the actions of a foreign citizen based on the code of law in the US?
Fear and force are human elements which should be the common denominator. No one forced anyone to do anything. And no one acted out of fear for their life.
I have no problem “otherizing” people who destroy innocent husbands, fathers, sons or whatever for their own warped agenda. They don’t get to be in the same category as others of their faith who are simply living their lives peacefully.
I prefer shunned. Otherizing sounds nicer and gentler.
@Emma, you just put parameters out and I agree with you. Not everyone establishes exactly who they are talking about.
I probably would go beyond shunning, Lyssa.
I have to work hard at not broad brushing in these incidences. See me struggle.
I occassionally have to fight the urge to want to mow people like that down in cold blood.
I respect both your passion and your 1st Amendment rights.
@Moon-howler
And thus we come to the heart of the matter.
I agree with you in many ways. But you can’t project that onto us, or namely me. You’ve stated that I generalized when I did not. I was very specific. I’ve gone through the “broad brushing” and come out the other side. I’ve worked in Muslim countries along side Muslims.
You’ve repeatedly stated that I’m angry or hating either Obama or Muslims, when I’m not and you seem to refuse to believe me. The only people I hate are those that offer violence to me and mine, and that includes Americans as a whole, and innocents across the globe. I hate political systems that oppress people.
I don’t have to “otherize” those storming an embassy. They ARE other, as if that’s a bad thing. A) we are ALL other. B) their ACTIONS placed them out of the civilized society.
That said, the creator of the film seems to be a fraud and a coward. Hope he survives the fatwa that the followers of the religion of peace are going to put on him.
@Moon-howler
Defending the freedom of speech of Jones, Bacile, Robertson, etc. is far from being the same thing as defending them or what they say. It’s your right to want to throw them both under the bus in a NY minute, but it’s not your right to actually do so.
I agree that Pat Robertson is a moron and hypocrite. He’s an embarrassment to most Christians and Republicans. He has a right to say, however, that Katrina was brought about by gays in New Orleans. It’s our job to be mature and intelligent, and recognize what BS that statement is – not try to shut him up. That’s debate in a free society. No one has the right to decide what should and should not be allowed.
Some communities ban most pornography and establish their own community standards. I have no problem with that. However, broadly speaking in the U.S. pornography depicting consenting adults is not illegal. I would assume that people living in communities with anti-pornography laws can get it online if they want. I don’t think anyone is claiming that lack of access to legal pornography in the U.S. is really a problem.
i wouldn’t know. re porn. I suppose it depends I thought that film was fairly “porn.” I expect christians would be appalled if we suddenly found out that the person we thought was Mohammad was actually Jesus. I expect there would be great weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth. I might even get a little help pulling that dude’s visa and sending him packing.
Its just all about respect. I might really hate a religion but I need to keep that hatred at my house. In a civilized society, we just don’t do what Bacile did. He should at least had the decency to do that out of his own country so all the crazed zealots in the world over-ran HIS embassies rather than ours.
Defending the freedom of speech of people you like and agree with is not much. Courage is requred to defend the rights of those you find loathsome.
I do it every day to be perfectly honest.
I really don’t have the energy for abstract gobbledeegoop about free speech. Speech is free until someone else decides its not. They either punch you in the face or have you arrested if it goes too far in most cases where it isnt an abstract situation.
Obviously no one but Youtube can do anything about the film. They won’t do anything about it until there is a complaint. All of a sudden the speech isn’t so free ….once the “publisher” got the word from on high. The publisher can do anything it wants.
You all are perfectly free to hold some toad like Bacile up as a model of free speech if you want. I would run his ass out of the country and pull his visa, if I were king. As for Jones, I am afraid I am stuck with that fool.
Like most fools, he will oversteps his bounds one of these days and there are enough people to nail him. I see him pretty much the same as the KKK. give a fool enough rope…..
Courage is going to help your people out on foreign soil and losing your life like Sean Smith, Chris Stevens, and the former navy SEAL did.
I dont really put much stock in the courage people find sitting behind a computer and typing out a bunch of words. wowowowowow! Shiver me timbers.
And to protect. Well said. Reminds me of that Lincoln quote on adversity and power!
Since we’re talking about porn and Islam.. Anyone want to finance a movie I’m thinking about making?
Debbie Does Muhammad staring Ron Jeremy as the Prophet.
I am 100% opposed to MH on this. Freedom of Speech is what it is. I support the pro-abortion people, the OWS, the ACLU and Westboro on this. I don’t support their messages but I support their right to say them without the Government interfering.
This is still America, right?
What is it that you think I am calling for? I am curious.
I do think that the defense Dept has every right to call Jones up and ask him to stop. He can be a d-bag and tell them to go to hell if he wants.
The other dude who isn’t an American…I would pull his visa. I also think he is a coward. He shot off his mouth and now he is hiding while others are being killed.
But what is it I am doing that you oppose? I dont think that people are pro abortion btw.
Even the American Civil Liberties Union defended the KKK’s right to free speech. I’m not always an ACLU fan, but I’ll credit them with the courage to defend the Constitutional rights of a group they undoubtedly found loathsome, and act consistently with their stated philosophy.
A statement from the Islamic Network Group:
To lump every single Muslim in with this violent group of ignorant thugs is ridiculous and in my opinion, very Un-American. We don’t judge an entire group based on the deeds of a few. There have been plenty of peaceful protests against the movie, which, by the way, is so poorly made, it’s pathetic.
The “director”, a term I use loosely, created a movie that he HOPED would create a backlash and then has the opportunity to hide with our Ambassador was no given no such chance. THAT is what I find cowardly.
The response to this movie is unfathomable to me, that people would actually want to cause bloodshed over a movie? That IS horrible, no on is denying that fact.
What this country should be doing is supporting the moderate muslims to maintain control over their religion. People in government, that generalize, do more harm than good in reaching out to those that most need our support to create sustainable change.
http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2012/07/moderate-muslim-clerics-attacked-in.html
MOSCOW — Assassins on Thursday attacked Russia’s two most prominent Muslim opponents of religious extremism, killing one, in a move that stoked fears the nation’s long, violent struggle against Islamic radicals may be spreading.
Now that we all have figured out rights vs relegion the only thing left is to give you all a big Bear Hug. So consider it given and thank you all for the ellightened discourse. You’re my favorite blog with so many diverse characters. Keep up the good work Moon!
I hear there is a plot to hang me in effigy. Hug back to bear. A wolf hug…watch out for the paw-nails.
Here is an interesting read about the people behind the film. In it, there is a question about whether “Sam Bacile” (or Nakoula Basseley Nakoula as the article says) is Israeli or Egyptian. i have heard that coptic christians fell they have been mistreated by the current regime in Egypt.
I think we need to wait until we hear more before we can have real opinions about the players in this tragic drama. (Other than the obvious that the film is incendiary).
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/13/friends-of-sam-bacile-a-whos-who-of-the-innocence-of-muslims-film-project/
Thanks Moon,not to worry about paw-nails, I have a thick skin! in my congratulations I didn’t mean to leave out Elena.
You’re in good company with the Effigy thing , most of our great learders were hung in effigy one time or enother. Before your head swells, some of our not so great leaders were also hung in effigy, but you are the former. Thought for the day:
I started out with nothing and still have most of it!
@Bear
Yay! I’m diverse! Thanks!
“I do think that the defense Dept has every right to call Jones up and ask him to stop.”
Supporting that line of thinking is not healthy with respect to our liberties and rights as free citizens. The govt should not interfere with or infringe upon a citizens right to free speech, religion or to seek redress.
A simple phone call from the Government can have a chilling effect. I do not support that.
All of our rights have outlying limits–there are those extreme cases. Citizens have limits on those rights any time 1A rights are perceived as compromising US security. Sorry, that’s just how it is.
Jones has had those calls before.
There are protests in 11 countries now–many of those countries are ones we have supported.
I don’t recall the Government phoning the artist who created an image of Jesus submerged in urine, entitled “Piss Christ.” I never heard boo when an artist depicted Jesus covered in ants, or when another taxpayer-funded work depicted Jesus receiving oral sex. Of course, no Christians went on a killing spree after those works were displayed, either. I guess it’s ok to inflame some religions, even at taxpayer expense, but not others.
@Emma, who said any of this is OK? Of course it isn’t OK. I don’t know about tax payer funded either. I would have to see the paper work on that one. Are you telling me someone had a grant? That’s a little different than something being taxpayer funded.
I guess I don’t understand your point. No one here is defending the behavior of the rioting thugs. I certainly am not. I am defending those muslims who aren’t out trying to compromise our embassies. Its all too easy to sweep everyone together.
I would hope someone would do that for me. When have I ever been in the position to be broadbrushed? Thanks for asking. Remmber those nasty hippy thugs who rioted, demonstrated, disrupted campuses in the late 60’s early 70’s? I would hate to be considered one of those people. I could have been but I wasn’t. I never spit on any returning troops either.
I am generally sensitive to those who aren’t part of a crowd–those getting all the negative attention.
Back to the issue at hand. If you know that in a particular part of the world that some of the denizens go psycho bizarro nuts over just about anything they deem an insult to their profit. why stir it up? Today we have an ambassador, a diplomat, and 2 former SEALS dead because denizens went on a rampage. Those 4 are heroes in my book. They died trying to save their coworkers from an invasion.
Why would we let Jones continue to stir up these jerks? I think we need to go into war time lockdown with that nut. He is as crazy as they are.
In this case he has not breached them. This is not an extreme (your word) case.
How did he compromise US security?
The piece caused a scandal when it was exhibited in 1989, with detractors, including United States Senators Al D’Amato and Jesse Helms, outraged that Serrano received $15,000 for the work, part of it from the taxpayer-funded National Endowment for the Arts. Serrano received death threats and hate mail, and lost grants due to the controversy.
The guy was pretty stupid. And being somewhat optimistic see what happened to the P Christ artist. There is a balance of order that comes from a balance of good and evil. It’s simply here and how we move through it is how we will be judged.
The guy – I mean the filmmaker ….
If you know that in a particular part of the world that some of the denizens go psycho bizarro nuts over just about anything they deem an insult to their profit. why stir it up?
You know what? I’m coming around to that point of view.
Except that I think that we need to become the bizarro nuts. Because the idiots in the Mid East sure keep stirring us up and inciting us. Notice that, as harsh as the Russians and Chinese have dealt with Muslims, no one is daring to assault THEIR diplomatic entities. The Russians are STILL in a shooting war with Muslims and the Chinese persecute their Muslim minorities. But WE get attacked over a silly ass you tube video?
I meant to say prophet. Homonyms get me every time.
@Cargo,
No one ever said it made a bit of sense. I just can’t get all worked up over some POS’s 1A rights. Screw them. Those 4 men shouldnt have had to die because some freaking fool had some sort of nasty on at Muslims and decided to make a silly ass film. They also shouldn’t have had to die because some stump preacher who has a roach coach for a pulpit (yes Emma, I am making fun of him) has his 1A rights. I would like to take both of them over to Libya or Yemen and push them out of the car. Let them have those rights over there. No one should have to die to protect stupidity.
All of this is so avoidable. The Eve of Destruction. Almost 50 years later and its still going on. Dying over stupidity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3VcFC9ZCV0&feature=fvsr
Those 4 men did not die because of a film. Those 4 men died because the terrorists planned and committed a strike on 9/11. The Film is a pretext. If it had REALLY been about a film, the protestors in Egypt would not have been chanting “We are ALL Osama!”
Appeasement never works.
Guns dont kill, people do. Stop being literal. The video helped fan the flames of violence.
Cargo, I am your guardian angel. I am here to tell you that you aren’t God. You don’t know everything.
Regardless of what the leaders had in mind, how do you think they got the worker bees out there? They fanned the flames with that video.
Let’s just let things settle down and then look at all the facts. You don’t know who what where or when and neither does anyone else.
We are all speculating, including you.
Never said that I know everything. What’s you’re point?
The imams get them out there probably with statements like….”X insulted Islam! Go protest!!” I have repeated MANY times that the film was a pretext, but is not the CAUSE.
Why do you insist on saying that these coordinated protests and attacks are about an idiotic movie when other motives are clearly being demonstrated.
MOST of those involved have not seen the movie. Most can’t even read their own language. The imams control them. They are angry and bitter. They are mostly unemployed. They are hungry. And they don’t like modernity. And the imams like the power which moderation and modernity would take away.
It doesn’t MATTER if this film fanned the flames. Anything that “offends” the imams fans the flames. In fact, they make crap up to fan the flames.
So that’s why I don’t care if it fans the flames. Either they modernize or get left behind. Everything offends them. Its a no win situation. They want to penalize and outlaw any criticism of Islam. So, where doe it stop?
@Cargosquid
Well, yes it does matter.Why deliberately offend and set people off?
That isn’t a challenge.
Plenty of people in all walks of life make MUS all the time to serve their own agendas.
Shirely Sherrod comes to mind immediately. All sorts of conservatives were frothing at the mouth over her. Turns out the “reporter” had taken almost everything out of context and only told part of the story.
Look at what problems that caused domestically.
Now lets put that on steroids.
Google just gave the single finger salute to the President and confirmed that the video does not violate its terms of service and they will not remove it.
Did he ask for them to remove it?
If he didn’t, then I don’t see the middle finger.
There are times, usually during war, where google would not have had a choice.
@Moon-howler
Of course he’s never that direct. Doing so would get him labeled as a President that doesn’t take the 1A seriously. He simply asked them to validate that the video met Google’s terms of service.
Google replied back with yes – we are not pulling the video.
KA-KA!!
“There are times, usually during war, where google would not have had a choice.”
YAY facism!
“Well, yes it does matter.Why deliberately offend and set people off?”
But what do you do when EVERYTHING sets them off? Any criticism is met with violence. I refuse to set restrictions on free speech because an ignorant barbarian refuses to enter the 21st century. First it was cartoons, which actually were ADDED TO and worsened by the Imams who publicized them for the PURPOSE of inflaming their followers. Then it was FITNA. Then came the calls to make criticism of Islam an INTERNATIONAL crime.
Would it have been polite to not make this? Yep. But Islam does not get a pass from criticism. And this film, as bad as it was, was criticism. If the make IS a Copt, he has valid complaints. Muslims use their religion as a just cause to riot, persecute, and murder across the globe.
Cargo,
You are an adult. Why are you criticizing them? Leave them alone. Why are you obsessing over the fact that you can set off some Muslim somewhere in the middle east.
I can set off religious people also. Pick a religion and give me a day…I can do it. why would I want to?
I don’t get it. Free speech is restricted all the time. You served in the military. No place strips you of your rights more than the military. You know it before you go in.
Frankly, I am grown very weary. I know that you want to extend free speech rights to foreigners (just not Latinos in the country illegally). Most of us feel we have aneough to deal with when Americans want to act stupid.
How about those people in Spain who run with the bulls? How smart is that?
Cargo, you can’t go kill them all. Try some other approach.
What do you do? leave them to hell alone. If they aren’t messing with you, don’t mess with them. That is the first step in conflict resolution. We get it. You dislike Muslims. You have convinced us. Next…….