Disclaimer: All guest posts are the opinion of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views of moonhowlings.net administration.
M-H
Guest Contributor Bill Golden
And yet … still I am voting Obama.
I wrote a piece the other day about the need for paying attention to the national debt, deficits, and paring expenses while balancing the budget.
Someone challenged me: how can I be concerned about these things ‘and yet’ vote Obama?
It is simple really.
I don’t see Obama as a great master of change. And no, I don’t believe that he has any grand plan for 2012-2016. He has disappointed me at times over the last four years — but I started out with lowered expectations since I’m a traditional Republican voter (70-80% of the time, maybe higher at local level).
So what do I see in Obama? Obama has lived up to his reputation of being ‘no drama Obama’ … which is good considering that the GOP has been after his ass since almost Day One with no intent of cooperating and working together for meaningful change and reform in any way on almost any issue. Obama has been a voice of stability working to bring most things to the center for resolution.
As for the incredible debt etc., every president develops each year a five year outlook into the future as to where budgets and debt are probably going. President Bush’s prediction for growth of our national debt has been Obama’s reality. Debt under Obama has barely differed from Bush’s prediction by 10% or less during his first two years in office.
—- As for Year 3 (2011) and Year 4 (2012), President Bush’s budget projection assumed that the war would be over in Afghanistan by 2011 and so no funds were programmed. Add the war expenses back in and accrued debt during Obama’s entire term is almost a straight line from where it was on Day One of his presidency, and in line with Bush FY2009′s Five Year Presidential Budget projection.
As for Obama’s legacy of debt to programs that started under his presidency: less new debt created by any president since Truman.
If you are a social conservative sure there are lots of reasons not to like Obama. If you are a fiscal conservative that understands basic math and understands the difference between ‘incurred obligated debt’ and debt due to new programs then Obama has been pretty good with a dollar.
My second reason for supporting Obama and essentially defecting from my GOP roots of almost 30 years: I really don’t think that the GOP gets it. They are not really so pissed off about Obama’s policies as they are that they lost in 2008. All this talk about ‘taking our country back’ is usually just empty, angry rhetoric that translates to ‘sure the country melted down on our watch but that was just a fluke. We like things the way they were’.
And so with just days to go until the election I do remain very concerned about America’s future, that damned fiscal cliff will be a much deeper drop than many suspect, and runaway debt seems endless. And yet … and yet I am voting for someone that I believe really has no plan, or any objective, that is any bigger or more grandiose than keeping America’s economy stable and just buying time to heal on its own. That is a classical conservative approach.
My choice may not be a brilliant choice. But for me it is a far better choice than voting for a return to what got us here to begin with.
Dear Bill,
A reasoned approach, thank you. I love how the odd paths in my life have allowed me to meet interesting and authentic smart people, you sure are one of them 🙂
Wonderful thoughtful piece and I thank you for sharing it with Moonhowlings.
my fav fun fact, thank you!
……AND, I got an Obama-Phone!!!
@SlowpokeRodriguez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI
I don’t need to pay for GAS!
As usual, not one coherent refutation to a reasonable opinion piece. Not surprising.
Yep…That Obama….sure knows how to cut the deficit in half…..and bring down the debt. Just like he said he would.
Hey, if it makes you feel better, vote for him. Of course, blaming Bush is a tradition among Obama supporters.
Now…since he IS the President AND claimed to be worried about the deficit, the debt, the credit rating, and jobs, what has he actually done? Let’s say that he is continuing Bush’s legacy. THAT’s supposed to be good? Ramping up from Bush is good? Funny how, at the height of Bush’s spending, the deficit never reached 1 trillion dollars. Ever. And Bush was a spendthrift.
If he was going to fix that problem, why didn’t he? He signed the 2009 budget that Pelosi/Reid presented to him, after waiting for inauguration. And after that….the Senate refused to present a budget for consideration.
“But for me it is a far better choice than voting for a return to what got us here to begin with.”
And what programs would that be? I mean….Obama hasn’t changed anything AND added new spending on top.
Here, Bill. You’re not voting for a 3rd Party….but I think this applies. And, really if you’re worried about the budget, etc…there’s always the Libertarian Party.
http://youtu.be/wPjBXufufUU
@Elena
You’re right. There’s seldom a coherent refutation other than “cut taxes” as though that alone devoid of details constitutes a solution.
The GOP has become an angry boys’ club. It’s social agenda, meanness, and lack of fiscal accountability had driven all the women in my family and most of the men who have married us into the Democratic fold. We’re still independents but find we have little choice. We remember what the 50s and 60s were like and we don’t want to return to the Cleaver era. (My father was in his fifties when he said to me while we were hiking one day, “It’s too bad that you have to grow up with your children – that you don’t know a hell of a lot more than they do”.)
I agree with what Bill said and I would add that the country of the 50s and 60s is gone – gone for good. We’re more urban, more diverse, more educated, more travelled. Perhaps there are segments of the population who are more fearful too – fearful of losing control, fearful of losing jobs or houses. But I think there are people who are capable of being mature and finding solutions, but that takes more than soundbites and fear-mongering or totem-posting “neener-neener” on blogs.
Here is this real fiscal conservative, does his research, isn’t vile in his approach or measured analysis, and yet, look at the reaction he gets Censored.
There is a certain sect of the Republican party that is so emotionally invested in their false narrative of not just Obama, but all Democrats, they can’t even see the facts before them. It’s stunning.
@Elena
Real fiscal conservative? Really?
yeah Cargo, Bill Golden IS a real fiscal conservative. He was a career military man, owns his own business and has for some time. He works full time and then some, not just sitting around complaining about made up crap. He also invests his time in creating forums for open dialogue in PWC. Yeah, I wish more people, from all “labels” were like Bill.
I have seen calculations that purport to show moderate spending by Obama. The only problem is that they are completely false. They leave out big-ticket expenditures through various gimmicks. The best example is Obamacare. Even though Obamacare has committed the U.S. to huge levels of spending for decades, it is not accounted for because it will not kick-in until after the election. These calculations are based only on historical spending, which looks relatively moderate without Obamacare.
So the straight-line trajectory of the debt touted by Bill could really be the prelude to very sharp increases in debt that may even be exponential.
Bill has been duped by the deceptive assumptions implicit in these calculations.
Ah yes, poor Bill Golden, successful entrepenuer has been duped! It must be hard to see a real Republican refute the sillliness on the right.
Kelly,
Bill Golden is well researched and thoughtful in his world views. I think you might be interested in reading his blog.
http://bill4dogcatcher.wordpress.com/
This is a more accurate description of Obama voters. In this story, the mentally disabled are being exploited to vote for Obama. Now you may be asking yourself the same question I am: Isn’t that Obama’s base?
http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012/11/01/1214384?sac=fo.local
@Elena
I sure wish we had like buttons here without involving facebook
I agree about favorite stats!
@marinm
To Marin and Slowpoke,
We can go through any youtubes and find fine examples of fools and people chosing to be AHs. I can go through and find lots of conservatives just making real tail holes of themselves. Why? I have better things to do. I know they are out there.
Why do you act like this? Your stupid links add nothing to the conversation and frankly they just make you look like angry old men. you aren’t old men. Stop looking like them. Go volunteer for your candidate. My husband is twice your age, Marin and he goes out 3 nights a week to phonebank for his favorite candidate. He is at least contributing something to his politics. Don’t say you are too busy. He runs a baby sitting service for more grandkids than you have kids and he is taxi service for a 17 year old who is going to school and working 20 hours a week at Starbucks and no, illegal aliens haven’t taken her job.
“Your stupid links add nothing to the conversation and frankly they just make you look like angry old men.”
It obviously did if you’re talking about it…………….
” Go volunteer for your candidate.”
Who do you think is my candidate and why should I go out and stump for him/her? Why is it not enough to just vote for that person?
@Cargosquid
I can just feel the hate oozing from that diatribe. Not sure what this was all about.
Cargo, did it ever occur to you that just maybe you aren’t the all-knowing and that you might sometimes be wrong?
Bill is very well researched. He is a friend of Elena’s and mine. He and Elena met under most unusual circumstances.
@Cargosquid
Why encourage a person (not that Bill would listen to you ) to throw away a vote?
doh!!!!!!
I guess that shows them. Flush.
Moon,
The dichotomy between inane posts by several of the” Republicans ” and Bill’s thoughtful opinion say it all.
@kelly_3406
kelly, very little dupes Bill Golden. He is a real go to person. Discrediting him on those lines just isn’t very convincing.
Be nice when all this crap is over, won’t it? Hey, we all knew a LONG time ago that this was going to be a bad election season. Look at the bright side, only a couple more days. I for one will be so happy to see the political ads go, and we can all get back to half-praising, half-griping.
And the best part is, that no matter who wins…..the Earth will keep turning! We’ll all get up the next day and have lives to go about.
@SlowpokeRodriguez
I’m ready for the election ads to end. I saw 5 in a row last night all telling me what an a-hole the other guy is. I’m ready for TV to go back to its more savory ads for erectile dysfunction and colon health … they don’t leave you feeling so dirty.
The ad that makes me the angriest is the lying dog ad about Kaine and education. That ad is just packed full of lies. Kaine managed to save as much money for education as he could in a horrible economy where he had to balance the budget. He is being castigated over it.
No matter who wins on Tuesday – we all lose. I don’t see our civil liberties improving anytime soon.
marin, you have a million more civil liberties than most people on this earth. You only lose your civil liberties if you let them be lost.
If you go around talking like that people will think you wear a foil hat.
What civil liberty are you without today that you enjoyed prior to Obama’s election?
I don’t think you have the guts or the brains to answer that.
@Elena
The right shifted out from Under Biull Golden. He has remained true to his own beliefs.
I have been thinking about this ‘anti-mainstream media’ hysteria that has been going oon the past couple of years.
Alternative right wing media is just bogus. Yea, stuff appears places you wont see in the “lame stream media.” Why? Because if it appeared in regular media, it would get called out because it can’t be verified.
Meanwhile, there are a whole bunch of under-read people out there who continue to read crap. yes, crap. Then a whole bunch of foiled hatters agree and all of a sudden Bullshit Mountain has more new residents. I saw underread because there is no breadth. Lots of depth but all the same crap. No gathering of all opinions. No holistic reading. I might read 30 Romance novels a week. That doesn’t make me well-read.
I am tired of unchallenged bullshit putting on the facade of fact when it is not.
This age of pseudo-intellectualism is frightening and some of you all are addicted to poison. I feel sorry for you. I expect your own spouses won’t listen to you and your co-workers have a strong off button. Your neighbors go into the house when they see you coming and if you have a favorite bar, all of a sudden all the seats are taken.
I don’t care if you want to believe bullshit but the bullying isn’t going to be allowed here.
Some people are not “wired” to give – on any level. Pity them but don’t linger “for it is in giving that we receive”…..
Your husband sounds like quite a guy!
You don’t need to pay for gas under Obama because as you can see in NYC, there will be no gas under Obama. Sorry, Sandy-sufferers, if you could make due with a windmill shoved up your butt or a solar panel strapped to your back, you wouldn’t be suffering so much!!
You talk a lot of smack for a 12-year-old girl!
@SlowpokeRodriguez
Then answer big boy.
I want to add Slow, just for a moment, you actually came out of your hate bubble and commented on a point we can all agree, we all hate the political ads 🙂
Moe,
As usual, your poetic prose sums it nicely…..erectile dysfuntion and colon cleansing ads…..Ahhhh, the good ole days!
ewwwwwwww
“What civil liberty are you without today that you enjoyed prior to Obama’s election?
I don’t think you have the guts or the brains to answer that.”
That’s an interesting caveat that you placed.
The question you should be asking really is how have civil liberties improved post 9-11. And the answer is they haven’t.
Your answer reeks of partisanship as you refuse to see the errors within your own party. I however look at both major political parties and see that they are both full of crap. I think that its a more intellectually honest approach.
“I don’t care if you want to believe bullshit but the bullying isn’t going to be allowed here.”
Whats amusing is that all the personal crudeness here between posters is from the left to the right including the admins. In the last few posts I’ve been called gutless, brainless and potentially wearing a tin foil hat.
I refuse to address those comments because they are beneath me.
@marin,
Now you are on a high horse over purity? 🙄 I guess this really isn’t going to be a very hospitable location the next few days then.
I will always call bullshit when I see it. If that makes me a personally crude person, oh well… I wear it as a badge of honor.
When I look at the comments that were made, many of these seem like normal questions that you shouldn’t shy away from.
Your problem is that you think most things are beneath you….public servants, senior citizens, pensioners, people who don’t make a great deal of money, and sadly illegal immigrants. I would also probably say women given the misogynistic remarks you have made on this blog in a wink wink sort of manner. There are probably lots of other things.
In fact, you have, over time, insulted pretty much everything about my existence, from my gender, the fact that I was a public servant, had a pension, and will collect ‘entitlements.’ Whether you know it or not, many of your comments pretty much tell me that a person like me is irrelevant in your eyes. I don’t think you meant to signal that message to me personally but because of lack of sensitivity, it was said. I might as well be an old plains Indian. You are paternalistic and colonial about your parents who gave you life and a home. You don’t trust them to be citizens?
So don’t get your feathers ruffled when the Elena and I (the admin) don’t roll over and play dead. If you think that you don’t have civil liberties you probably should have tried being a black man or woman up until about 1975. If that’s a little rough, probably a woman up until about 1975 might be a little more gentle but still give you a taste of what it is like to be a second class citizen.
You have more civil liberties than 99% of the people in this world. So do I. And yet you laugh at Elena and me and the other women on this blog for drawing our line in the sand on reproductive rights and defending our civil liberties. The only way women will ever be economic equals is if they have total control over their own reproduction.
Well crap. You done screwed up my point! 😉 But, thanks for the suppressive fire.
Marinm is quite correct in refusing to answer, but I would like to mention a couple of things.
The President now has the power to declare an American citizen to be enemy combatant and kill him without due process.
The Feds now have taken the power to require Americans to purchase a private product, I.e. the individual mandate. This amounts to seizing of private property for public gain.
Who on this blog is afraid they are going to be mistaken for an enemy combatant?
We knew that on 9-11 that we were going to lose civil liberties and freedoms. That is what Bin Laden took from us. We had to do it to protect our lives.
I dont blame the presidents.
Moon, thank you for sharing from a real personal persepctive. It DOES matter when everything you represent in your life is attacked. I think that people forget on the other end of their vitriole diatribe are real people.
@Starryflights
Starry — My greatest disappointment with Obama is his about-face on his pledge to reverse the course set after 9/11 where we abandoned liberties for security, policies he said were based on fear rather than our guiding principles. Since he took office Obama has compiled kill lists of people the CIA and the military are directed to eliminate, including American citizens. He’s refused to disclose the criteria used to put someone on one of the kill lists and in federal court he’s arguing that the government does not even acknowledge it has a drone program. Really? Does anyone believe we don’t have a drone program? He’s invoked the state secrets privilege, the one he condemned when Bush used it, to hide information about spying and torture from the public and the courts. He’s indicted twice as many American under the Espionage Act than every other president in our history combined. He’s arguing in federal court that the government has the right under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to listen in on Americans communicating with people overseas and that it can do so without having to get a FISA warrant from the special court created more than 30 years ago to review FISA applications (and that has only turned down 5 or 6 of the thousands of requests the government has submitted). He signed the National Defense Authorization Act that permits indefinite detention, including detention of American citizens. I could go on, but I just don’t see how anyone could argue civil liberties have been a net gain under Obama, and that’s a huge disappointment. That said, as dismal as his civil liberties record has been, he’s the least worst of the two choices.
” I guess this really isn’t going to be a very hospitable location the next few days then.”
It really hasn’t been for a long time.
“Your problem is that you think most things are beneath you….public servants, senior citizens, pensioners, people who don’t make a great deal of money, and sadly illegal immigrants.”
Go on. The list is longer. 😉
“You don’t trust them to be citizens?”
Correct. I do not. Because they weren’t born here they must earn it. I can’t stop them. If they want it they can work towards it.
“So don’t get your feathers ruffled when the Elena and I (the admin) don’t roll over and play dead.”
This is your blog. Your rules. I am simply pointing out that along with your ideology that you treat people differently. Which to me is amusing as you fight for ‘reproductive rights’.
“If you think that you don’t have civil liberties you probably should have tried being a black man or woman up until about 1975.”
You misquoted me. I didn’t say we had none. I said that I don’t see them improving (with whomever is elected). Do you see NDAA being fixed? Patriot? Hows Gitmo? What about 4th and 5th Amendment protections currently being watered down by the courts?
” And yet you laugh at Elena and me and the other women on this blog for drawing our line in the sand on reproductive rights and defending our civil liberties.”
I don’t laugh at you when you actually stand up for civil liberties. I do however laugh at you for standing up for ‘access’ to ‘reproductive healthcare’ based on a notion that someone else ought to pay for it when the person (male or female) should be doing that on their own. I really could care less if anyone is on the pill (I’m not the social conservative that you think I am) but I do care if I have to pay for it.
The day that you buy the ammo for my guns – come back to me and I’ll give you the $10 for a month long script from Rite-Aid.
@marin,
That isn’t quite what you said….have they asked for your help? I believe each person must earn his own citizenship. I dont think it should just be assumed. I suppose it was how you said it…that you didn’t trust them. I read that to mean they don’t think like you so therefore you don’t trust them to be citizens.
The feeling of hostility has been very much directed at Elena and me. Not saying just you and I am not saying it was even personal. Just is.
Reproduction-I dont really care if contraceptives are paid for or not en mass. I think they should be treated like any other drug. that’s all. There should be no conscience clause. That is so bogus. I feel the same way about that as I do the clerk that wouldnt touch the bottles of wine George was buying. Go work somewhere else.
As for surgical sterilizations-treat it the same as any other surgery. It isn’t the boss’s business. (both male and female). You have laughed and mimicked us. I have not done the same to you over similar topics. I wouldn’t.
I guess its give a little get a little.
@Morris Davis
Thank you. We may disagree on a lot but I appreciate your stand on those issues.
Marinm,
I am truly surprised by your open disrespect for your parents. I hope your children don’t talk about you in the same manner, no matter what the subject.
It actually hurts me on their behalf. They gave up so much for their kids.
@Elena
I doubt it. I’m already a citizen. 🙂
@marinm
Citizenship is not immunity for disrespect from one’s children.
@Moon-howler
Or from their adult peers.
Elena and I are certainly living proof of that.
You know, we shouldnt feel like we are logging into a war zone when we come on our own blog, now should we?
Channel surfing I can see that Republicans are doing that Republican bird thing…you know…puffing up.
Birds puff up their feathers on their chest so they look bigger and bulkier to their enemies.
I enjoy watching it.
Democrats don’t do that. They are too superstitious to do that puffing up.
I wish I could draw.
I am laughing at Faux News….watching them inflate those poll figures with bird feathers all puffed up. Bad karma!!!!!
I think the choice of threads posted and then the uneven application of the rules don’t help.
The rules have been applied evenly.
Threads posted? You have got to be kidding me. Well shame on us! Our threads reflect our political opinions.
@Morris Davis
Morris, you and I don’t see I to eye on a lot of things, but on this you and I are in 100%, complete, and seamless agreement.
I find it very ironic that you watch Fox more than I do, Moon.
I doubt that. I only watched today for the first time in about a month. I wanted to hear the hurricane spin. They did not disappoint.
I am not for censorship but if I change my mind, those guys will be my first stop to shut off the mic. They spew crap and sadly a whole bunch of people, many of them old, have been scared into hanging on their every word.
“I can just feel the hate oozing from that diatribe. Not sure what this was all about.”
There was no hate there. I think that you are projecting. And the vid was an appeal to third party voters to look at the reality of voting third party as opposed to what they think it means. You keep associating hate with opposition.
Cargo, you have been driven by intense dislike Obama and any political scene not far right since I have known you. I just don’t think you are aware of it.