LANSING, Mich. — Even with the outcome considered a foregone conclusion, the heated battle over right-to-work legislation in the traditional union bastion of Michigan shows no sign of cooling.
Authorities in Lansing were bracing for an onslaught of demonstrators Tuesday at the Michigan Capitol as the Legislature reconvenes for what could be final votes on bills. Hundreds of people gathered early Tuesday to get inside.
“I want to try to get into the gallery. I want to see the proceedings,” said Wes Nakagiri of Livingston County’s Hartland Township, an engineer with an auto parts supplier. “I’m for the legislation, but I can see both sides.”
If it is passed and signed into law, Michigan would become the 24th right-to-work state, banning requirements that nonunion employees pay unions for negotiating contracts and other services.
“I’m for the legislation, but I can see both sides.” It sounds reasonable to me and pretty much sums up how many folks feel–yea–both sides seem to make sense.
If I were entrenched union it would burn the daylights out of me to suddenly be faced with the fact that workers could bypass membership and reap the rewards of union negotiated salaries and benefits. grrrrrrrrr I would growl even louder if I had paid my dues and someone right next door to me hadn’t.
If I were a worker bee and didn’t want to join the union, I can see the freedom of choice issue being a real option. Union dues are expensive and the rules can be tough.
I talked to a buddy of mine in Pennsylvania who belonged to a union (PA is not a right to work state) and he HAD to go walk his time on the picket line. I asked what would happen if he didn’t. He made it sound like broken knee caps. I think he actually just got fined. He had been on strike over 2 weeks. Neither he or his wife were getting paid. However, 51% voted to stay on strike. The other 49% who wanted to go back to work were out of luck.
Had PA been a right to work state, Joe could have returned to work had he chosen. In some states, crossing that picket line would have put him in immediate danger also. Some unions don’t always play nice.
GOP Gov. Rick Snyder has pledged to sign the measure to make Michigan a right to work state into law. Details are still sketchy to me as to where workers would stand regarding collective bargaining. I assume it would be business as usual. Snyder SAYS that this bill will give workers freedom of choice and that it isn’t about breaking the unions.
Bull Snort! It is all about breaking unions. The unions will have to work that much harder to attract and maintain membership. some might have to reduce dues or come up with other gimmicks. Unions are seen as getting out the vote for Democrats so I suspect that is the real motivation. I actually don’t think it will work. The GOP will be even more reviled by the rank and file worker for union busting than ever. So much for choice.
I find it odd that when dealing with deeply personal issues like unintended pregnancy the GOP wants full control and the woman to have no choice. In matters of joining a union, which seems fairly impersonal, the GOP is full choice for the individual. The logic makes no sense to me.
Fabulous Picture Album of Michigan Labor – click here. (Detroitnews.com)
I look at it this way.
If they DON’T like being right to work…nothing stops them from repealing it.
Many will probably try to do exactly that. But that really doesn’t address the problem, does it?
Its union busting at its finest.
Union busting – brought to you by the party that b!tches about immigrants driving down wages.
Yes, Unions do have their issues and problems, but it was the Union labor movement that brought us such things as…..
8 hour work day, 5 day work week
Meal Time
Child labor laws
Fair wages and income equality
employer based health coverage
FMLA
Pensions
Safety regulations
Worker education and training
Who helps advocate for smaller class sizes, and nurse staffing at hospitals – it is the Unions that do that. Yes, we can all point to corruption in Unions, but there is enough corruption to go around without the Union – just look at HSBC’s fine this week for laundering money for the drug cartels. Walmart and Hanes were flagged a few weeks ago for child labor violations in foreign countries.
What is even more disgusting is that this legislature is acting in its last few days of session while the republicans still hold a solid majority. They should have waited until the next legislature was seated before acting on this type of legislation. The state republicans should be ashamed of themselves for ignoring the people’s will.
Wow, so much anger at the prospect of no longer being able to force employees to join a specific union. Unions are not being outlawed only the automatic garnishment of wages to a specific one and the requirement to join that union in order to get the private or public sector job. Apparently the prospect of competition, even competition in getting workers to join a union – as it is in the Federal government – is more than some folks can handle. Actually, I woul not mind if a company opted to agree to such a requirement, but where does the government get the right to interfere in that relationship to require it by law?
I think the people who are angry are union members. I can see it from their point of view. They feel that their union rights are being violated. They don’t want someone to scab off of their membership dues.
I also see the other side. What does that make me?
Also, I don’t have a problem with the union negotiating a separate contract for union members. If a worker is non-union…he doesn’t get the same benefits.
@Starryflights
should be ashamed of themselves for ignoring the people’s will.
Where were you when ObamaCare was rammed through with deceptive means?
The violence has started.
http://twitchy.com/2012/12/11/new-tone-mich-democrat-threatens-violence-over-right-to-work-vote-there-will-be-blood/
And this is just sad….
http://www.caintv.com/brilliant-teachers-union-prote
Teachers protesting with signs spelling the governor’s name wrong. There should be a red pen involved, the name crossed out, and a proper spelling in its place….THAT would be a great poster.
The Union negotiates a CBA – Collective Bargaining Agreement – on behalf of its members, but the non member also gets the same wages and benefits as was negotiated by the Union. The non member also uses the Union to file grievances against the employer – effectively getting many of the benefits of the union members without contributing – a free ride.
What I do not understand – if one does not like working on a union job, well then, do not look for work there – go somewhere else. UPS – Union, FedEx – non union.
@Pat.Herve
If there is no choice, where do you go?
As I said, I have no problem with changing the rules that take away the non-member’s benefits.
@Cargosquid
cargo – misspelling on signs is over rated –
http://twitter.yfrog.com/g0lkxmjkj
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-mitt-romney-misspelling,0,5912551.story
it happens all the time.
26,000 kids stayed home so the teachers could protest.
In related news… Detroit test scores go up 5 points.
What?
Too soon? 👿
@Pat.Herve
I know… the funny part is that it was a TEACHER using that sign as a back drop. That’s why I suggested that the corrections.
What are you talking about? Please direct me.
@Moon-howler
If you’re talking about the sign thing….
http://www.caintv.com/brilliant-teachers-union-prote
If you’re talking about the 26,000 kids….teachers did a “sick out” to go protest, taking sick days or vacation days. Whole schools closed for the day.
That said, I did the joke because, apparently, only 7-8% of 8th graders read at level.
I am so sorry I asked.
I knew about the kids being out. I doubt if there is a correlation between 8th grade reading level and them missing today. In fact, who knows where those stats came from.
@Moon-howler
That’s why I said it as a joke with the “evil” face and didn’t report those stats as news. I didn’t research them. But as a basis for a joke…good enough.
@Moon-howler
Detroit public-school eighth graders do even worse in math than they do in reading, according to the Department of Education. While only 7 percent scored highly enough on the department’s National Assessment of Educational Progress test in 2011 to be rated “proficient” or better in reading, only 4 percent scored highly enough to be rated “proficient” or better in math.
Statewide in Michigan, only 32 percent of public-school eighth graders scored grade-level proficient or better in reading, and only 31 percent scored grade-level proficient or better in math.
68 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders are not proficient in reading and 69 percent are not proficient in math.
Over the past decade, Michigan’s public school have shown no improvement at all in teaching children how to read. In 2002 just as in 2011, according to the U.S. Department of Education, only 32 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders scored proficient or better in reading.
So? Are you making a point about something, Blue?
Is there some correlation you want me to pick up on?
What is the source of your information? If I am going to engage, I want to see the data for myself.
@Moon-howler
Really, do you think there could be correlation? All I wanted to do was repond to your question regarding the cited source of the numbers.
I kinda doubt that there is a study connecting or comparing right to work teacher cities or states and performance to mandatory union membership cities or states and their achievments. Might be interesdting though. I think there have been such studies for auto workers in terms of salaries and productivity though. I will look.
I would doubt there would be a correlation. I was afraid someone was trying to find one.
I suspect those might be scores out of a very poor school district.. Its hard to say.
I am multitasking and trying to listen to the BOCS reports. HOusing Gap analysis at the moment. Lots to sort out.
In all the discussion of this issue on the various media outlets, I have not seen anyone offer a succinct accurate description of the content of the legislation. I have been travelling quite a bit lately, so I haven’t been able to sniff it out myself. At the hotel last night, however, I listened to Rachel Maddow go on at some length (albeit in her usually articulate manner) about how horrible this legislation is without once describing what the content of the legislation was.
My guess (uninformed at this point) is that the content of the bill is largely what one finds in other RTW states – a prohibition on mandatory union membership as a quid pro quo for employment. I also suspect that the reason people like Ms. Maddow don’t mention the content of the legislation is that, if this is what the bill is all about, it is not an unreasonable protection for workers. As Cargo says (I find us in unusual alignment more frequently than usual lately), it wouldn’t bother me if unions could negotiate only for their members and those who chose not to join would not reap the benefit of the collective bargain.
Michigan has seen a lot of employment, primarily in the auto industry, but also in other trades, migrate to neighboring RTW states. The enormous boom of auto manufacturing in the South is, in part, attributable to RTW laws. (I recently saw acres of BMWs manufactured in South Carolina sitting on the Charleston docks awaiting export to Europe).
If the legislation has some element attempting to ban collective bargaining by public workers’ unions, a la Wisconsin, I’m agin it. That’s a different issue. What Wisconsin did (and Ohio attempted) was to stack the deck against unions by taking away a right to collectively bargain in reaction to governments having been poor bargainers in the past.
I don’t know the answer. I see both sides. No heart burn here.
I think we’re missing the point here- the Michigan GOP had to force this thing thru in lame duck in one day after swearing that it wasn’t a priority during the election. Just like with ultrasound, contraception, gay rights, voter suppression, etc., if they have the support of the voters, why do they need a hidden agenda? Is this Democracy?
Why do they isolate out Police and Fire Fighters? Even in Wisconsin, where the law went a bit further, the Police and Fire Fighters were isolated out and not affected by the law.
So, it is ok to not join the Union if you are a teacher or auto worker, but to be a Police officer, you have to join? If the law is good for one, it should be good for all – and then we wonder why there are so many loop holes in every law.
That has never made sense to me either, Pat. State police had some special arrangement in Wisconsin last year. I wish I could remember the details.
This kowtowing to the Police and Firefighter unions is exactly why there should not be a public union. Either the law is good for all….or its not.
No, I disagree. Police and fire put their lives and their well being on the line on a daily basis– in ways significantly different than could be argued for a teacher or public works employee. In the case of police, (who are inherently governmental) fire and maybe rescue, the unions have a different role, one that includes work rules that involve their own and citizen safety, pensions and disability benefits that other employees should not expect. I might also argue that police and fire unions are needed to help protect those employees from the risk of administrative and even judicial actions different from those of other public or private employees/unions due to the nature of the job. Are some the same problems common to all public unions here – yes, but I think they are much more justified.
So, given that police ,fire and maybe rescue unions have a different role to play, why would they be exempted from the Right to Work rules….Because other employees do not rely on the each other or the team for their own protection or their performance to the public in the same way. In the case of Michigan it is also due to the fact that these are the only public employees that as a matter of law canot strike.
blue – are you trying to tell me that a VDOT worker does not need safety rules that are followed? That that person’s life is in danger at times because he is doing what is being asked? Or that a teacher can be put at risk because of an infectious or rebellious child?
Yes, they are different situations, but both deserve to be protected and provided with safety in the workplace – in many situation, it is only the Union that fights for safety in the workplace.
If RTW is good for one, it should be good for all.
@Pat.Herve
If you think that the daily work environment, professional risk/liability or that the relationships/reliance or back-up among police officers or a fireman is the equivelent of that of a VDOT worker or a teacher, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Its not about having a union or about safety and operating rules – Geez – its about whether it is reasonable to require that as a condition of employement – due to the nature of the employement – that you be required to be in THE union. VDOT employees and teachers are not inherently governmental. Police and many of our 1st responders are. That makes a big, big difference.
@blue
hmmm… Are the rules different in Virginia? Must you join the union to be cop,etc?
Because if the right to work laws apply here, I see no problems with the forces.
VDOT employees and teachers are not inherently governmental.?
Are they not government employees?
Again….even FDR was against public unions. RTW for all.
If left optional, governments and employers will simply hire non-union people.
Staryy, I do not agree with that statement.
There are many industries – take construction – where the employees move to the current employer that has the work. What the Union does in these cases is provide a trained labor force and a multi-employer pension and health benefits plan. As the worker progresses, the Union offers training classes to get a better, more skilled work force, and provides a stable retirement. Otherwise, the individual will have a mix of pension plan, and most times, never be vested in anyone of them. There are benefits to the employer, as well as the employee.
blue –
Yes. Although a Police Officer or Fire Fighter does have a dangerous job – it is not the most dangerous job out there. On a yearly basis, many more truck drivers lose their lives during working hours than Police Officers. I am not saying that they have an easy job, or trying to diminish the work they do – but their job deserves no more protection than any other employee. Look at Sean Lanigan – http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-state-of-nova/post/sean-lanigan-sues-fairfax-schools-for-his-legal-fees/2011/08/30/gIQACEtHqJ_blog.html – he did no wrong, yet he is out of a job, and out of $$ – it is not right.
As best I can tell PWCPD is not union. They have an association, but I don’t know what the legal distinction is.
An association is like any other professional association, like PWEA is the teachers’ professional association.
Are any of the cops in Virginia unionized? I do not know.
China probably doesn’t allow unions, and so how do you explain the steady rise in factory worker wages without one? My guess is that supply and demand in the workforce dictates wages and benefits as well as any union forced changes, and with more reasonable results. Unskilled assembly line work whether you’re building cars or hot water heaters is basically equivalent yet the UAW forced enormous benefits for auto workers by holding a gun to the head of the company and not allowing non-union workers to replace them. Reagan fired the air traffic controllers and guess what, the operations kept going without any future fear the controllers would one day walk off the job with planes in the air.
Public employees in Virginia are not permitted to engage in collective bargaining. I believe they’re allowed to “meet and confer”.
Rise in factory worker wages is probably due to outsourcing from the US and other countries. That doesn’t speak well of China or the US. Rise in worker wage is relative – how low was it?
I’m not so sure we’re better off with air traffic controllers now – I recall understaffing and ridiculous shifts.
China is starting to outsource work to countries that surround it, like Vietnam.
The air traffic controllers can always complain to the TSA if it involves a matter of safety.
The rise in wages in China coupled with the fear of counterfeit parts is bringing work back to the states. This is a good trend, and you can expect manufacturing growth here to occur first in the ‘right to work’ states for obvious reasons.
@SA That sounds like a good thing. I am more interested in our safety standards than I am in job growth actually.
Who says the govt is all bad. Would you feed your favorite dog American made dog food or Chinese made dog food? That should answer the gubbmint question.