A Damascus High School student says she was “harassed and intimidated by teachers and an assistant principal for refusing to stand” during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Tenth-grader Enidris Siurano-Rodriguez said she was sent to the assistant principal’s office on April 4 for not taking part in the Pledge of Allegiance, according to the ACLU of Maryland, which is representing the family.
Siurano-Rodriguez’s biology teacher asked her to stand during the Pledge, but the student had been sitting “as a way of showing her disagreement with the United States government policies toward Puerto Rico,” where her family is from, said an ACLU media release.
Montgomery County schools spokesman Dana Tofig said school officials have received the letter, which was sent Tuesday, and will look into the matter.
“Our schools do recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of the day, but students are not required to stand or participate,” Tofig said.
A 1943 U.S. Supreme Court decision and Maryland state law say public schools cannot force students to salute the flag.
This is another one of those cases where our personal opinion really doesn’t matter. It’s all about the law. Students cannot be forced to recite the pledge or stand for it.
Most schools do a damn poor job of informing teachers and aids of this law. Without being told, teachers often do what they think is right. If they don’t know any better, they often insist on student participation. It is the job of each school system to ascertain how school personnel will be told about division policy on handling students who choose not to participate in the pledge.
While a student has the right not to pledge to the flag (Jehovah’s Witnesses are absolute about not pledging,) that student does not have the right to be disrespectful and disturb the solemnity that the other participants exhibit during the recitation. I would suggest that non-participants sit quietly at their desks while the others pledge. If the student chooses to disrupt, they should be removed from class.
Opening exercises at a school should not be the time for everyone play political musical chairs. Who cares how this girl feels? Schools are not bastions of free speech either, for obvious reasons. Yet, there is always some little twit who wants to push the envelope. To quote The Eagles, “Get over It!”
The ACLU plans on sticking with this particular case. Are they right or are they wrong to get involved? Should the girl have been removed from class? We aren’t really told what her behavior was while sitting. Could the teacher have avoided what happened based on the information provided? How would YOU have handled it if you were the biology teacher?
Further reading at the Washington Post.
She can go to BC and not get condoms.
Or she can go off campus?
How I would handle it would be dependent on what the purpose of having school children recite the pledge is in the first place. I really don’t know why having anyone, including adults at the local HOA meeting recite these words. If there is a overwhelming public need for such recitation then, maybe,
it would trump a citizen’s right to free speech. I have regurgitated these lines thousands of times and I don’t think it had an effect, either positive or negative, on me. Today, when everyone is expected to stand and say their pledges of allegiance, I respectfully stand and keep quite. I do that not because I disagree with the government’s position on Puerto Rico, but because I think it is a useless exercise.
@BSinVA
Dear BS–it is your right and I will defend it to the death but I also think that you are full of crap.
The interesting thing about this case is that it is based on a 1943 decision by the Supreme Court, which means that this “right” existed while most of us attended grade school. But knowledge of this right had not filtered down to the schools and anyone that did not recite the pledge would be dealt with swiftly and surely.
High School is a time to be rebelleous. Best bet would have been to use this as teachable moment in my opinion, to discuss nationalism and what patriotism looks like.
Elena and I had quite a discussion over this issue this morning. I said no, I wouldn’t have given her the mike. It would be rewarding negative behavior in biology class.
If she was being disruptive I would have had her removed. IF and only if she just sat there, I would have ignored her and moved on. Many kids don’t do the pledge when they are that age. Yawn. Who cares, as long as they aren’t beings PITAs. She wanted a chance to tell her feelings? Stay after school and let her tell you her feelings on HER time, not during instructional time. Kids with an opinion that is counter to what the rest of the folks are doing are a dime a dozen. If teachers stopped for everyone who wanted to be different they would never make a dent in the curriculum.
Teachers also make a mistake if they allow Jehovahs Witnesses to ‘explain’ why they don’t pledge or do a lot of other things. Who cares. Its just another chance to hop on the soap box. You aren’t going to change their minds and why take up your own time? Who cares. Pick fights you can win.
There used to be a teacher at one of the neighborhood schools around here who used to bully kids horribly over the pledge. Lafayette probably heard stories about Mr. F at SES. (not Sudley)
Elena had on her counselor hat. I had on my old bitch hat.
I agree with Elena. And what patriotism looks like may not require the regurgitation of the Pledge.
I refuse to recite it. I object to the “under God” part and to the lie that there is justice for all.
I object to the “under God” phrase also. For that reason, I think it’s ridiculous to recite it in schools.
If the student was not being disruptive, the school’s in the wrong.
BUT at the same time to come here from Puerto Rico and disrespect a patriotic ritual is very bad form, shows a sense of entitlement, and shows me that the student and the parent are complete d*cks.
So exactly why do we want our fellow citizens to stand up, face the flag and recite a pledge? I’m not saying they shouldn’t, or that they can’t. But why is it important?
Disrespecting the United States Constitution is a far, far more serious offense than disrespecting a ritual.
Now that I think about it, Texas and Sarah Palin’s husband don’t agree with the indivisible part. I’m not sure that the US Congress agrees either.
If the teacher wasn’t sure of the legalities of having her class recite it, she could assign her class some homework – research it.
George: I didn’t know you felt that strongly about Puerto Rico. Sorry! @George S. Harris
@Kelly_3406
Kelly is right. I was telling Elena this morning that no one ever bothered to tell you that you didn’t have to do all this. No one is told in schools today, at least not by their schools.
I also think BS is on to something. Forced recitation never improved my patriotism. It didn’t help, it didn’t hurt. It was just hollow. I can’t tell you how many times I have just stood, hand over heart, droning on daily…:roll:
Yet I think all Americans and those who perhaps aren’t Americans but who live in this country should know the pledge. I suggest kindergarteners learn it before they become jaded and too cool to learn it. Forced endoctrination through first grade. Then maybe quarterly or monthly, schools should have a USA day….do a little pledge, National Anthem, study a historical person who contributed to this country in a significant way.
I think doing the pledge as a special occassion would be far more meaningful than the daily dose of endoctrination that is probably less significant than brushing one’s teeth in the morning. Do it often enough that it isn’t forgotten but not every day so that most people don’t even think about what they are saying.
Finally, we don’t need to say it before every public meeting. I don’t need to ‘prove’ my patriotism. I also don’t think knowing and reciting the pledge makes me any more patriotic than someone who doesn.t do this. Fake patriotism sickens me.
How about stopping a parade in the middle for the pledge on the 4th of July? That would be far more significant than before the BOCS meeting.
Youth groups can continue with the pledge. It’s character building. I would exempt any kid who didn’t want to say it, anywhere, as long as they had parent permission. [evil grin]
If anyone had told my parents I wasn’t doing the pledge one of them would have smacked the crap out of me…not because they loved the pledge, but because I was was being a challeging smart-ass and a poor reflection on them.
Therefore, I pledged. It was never discussed. People of my generation didn’t have those things discussed. You knew what was expected of you without discussion.
@Rick Bentley
I agree, Rick. School was wrong unless she was being disruptive, which to date is unclear.
I resent ‘under God’ because of that old church-state thing.
@Rick Bentley
Maybe she would like to renounce her US citizenship?
Many, many Latinos would love to have the status that this little twit seems to resent.
Mindless recitation doesn’t give a person a stronger understanding of the meaning. DH and I know quite a few people who sang “Bringing in the Sheep” in church. lol. Maybe they actually understood on a higher level…
Bwaaaahahahahahahahahahaha
Bringing in the Sheep!!!!!!! Too funny. Were hip boots involved?
@BSinVA
I think it is important for kids to learn it. Why? It’s just a piece of Americana that I think we should all know. Maybe I mean its part of the collective body of knowledge that makes on an American. I don’t think it is important to be forced into daily regurgitation.
Some people mistakenly think reciting the pledge is a sign of patriotism. I cry foul on that one. Any idiot can recite the pledge. Bet all sorts of commie pinkos know it by heart and can recite it in the dark. 😈
I think that deference to our flag is a part of citizenship. I still am thrilled each time I see our flag, hear pit national anthem and recite the pledge of allegiance. I suppose it’s due to the 39 year postgraduate course in citizenship I took. Or maybe I’m just old fashioned and fiercely proud of our nation. I don’t think of saying the pledge as a “regurgitation” or puking it out–I think of it as part of our duty as a citizen of this nation. As I stated earlier, each of you has a right to your opinion and I have and will continue to defend your right to have your opinion but insure as Hell don’t have to agree wit it or you. As to the girl not saying the pledge–her peers will more than likely take care of that.
It was written by a socialist – he and his brother envisioned a government run economy. The first posturing while reciting the pledge was hand initially placed over heart then the arm extended out toward the flag. Obviously that action halted when Hitler rose to power.
We all know the “under God” story.
Hawaii, Vermont, Iowa, Oklahoma and Wyoming do not have laws requiring it be led in schools. Can you get any redder than Oklahoma?
Bwaaaahahahahahahahahahaha
Bringing in the Sheep!!!!!!! Too funny. Were hip boots involved?
Careful, that line has a different connotation for those who once resided in Blacksburg.
Patriotism has been a word so abused over time. I love my country, its the best place to live, no doubt, but it is not without its fault.
I will never forgive Saxby Chambliss for going after Max Cleeland over his questioning the Iraq invasion. The mantra you are either with us or against was more like a blugdeoning weapon over those who dissented with the invasion. I figure if you give three out four limbs, you don’t really have to prove your patriotism.
@Elena
Right. Max Cleland doesn’t need to recite the Pledge of Allegiance to convince me of his patriotism.
Maybe “patriotism” is internal the way Elena expresses it (love of country, sacrificing limbs in battle and then further serving one’s country in public service without asking for adoration, raising children to better one’s community, pushing one’s nation to be the best it can be). That is difficult to fake and intensely private and to be honored. A pledge of allegiance is external, public and easily faked by those that feign patriotism to further their own goals and easily manipulated by those that really aren’t patriotic as defined above.. Bottom line: it is ritual to me and means next to nothing. Sorry George.
Good point about fake patriotism. I like the idea of raising decent kids and trying to make your country a better place to live as outward signs on patriotism.
I pretty much agree about recitation of the pledge. Pretty hollow if you ask me.
Now, seeing the flag….especially at critical times, not so much…but even so, it is a symbol.
I truly am sorry that so many have such a shallow view of this whole thing. I will continue to stand tall, I will continue to recite the Pledge of Allegiance with heartfelt meaning, I will continue to be loyal to my values. Unless you have been there, done that, you don’t have clue as to what patriotism is all about. When you stand there with the blood of a young person running through your fingers, when you see the light go out of their eyes, when you hand a flag to their loved one and say to the, “On behalf of a grateful Nation…”, then you come talk to me about patriotism. I’ve done all those things and more.
George, I have the greatest respect for what you have done for your country. However, will all that respect, I just don’t think that is the only way to show patriotism or to show love of your country. I certainly would not take the Pledge of Allegiance and how one feels when they say it as a measure of one’s love of country.
I think you are missing our point which is that the daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance doesn’t increase our patriotism. What it does is desensitize us to the entire thing because we have been forced to parrot words for 13 years in school and then at every frigging meeting somone has.
Frankly, I don’t think being in the military makes anyone more or less patriotic than the next guy. Being in the military might be a more demonstrative way of showing one’s patriotism but it sure isn’t the only way.
There are lots of ideas floating in this thread. Perhaps you have never been in the position of having to parrot a pledge day after day after day. I have. If you want to discuss the parrot end of it, come talk to me. I can double down on that one. Tell me George, could you have done those things you mentioned without the Pledge of Allegiance? I think yes–very much so.
The definition of patriotism can be paraphrased (in my view) as doing something that puts the interest of the country above your own. Patriotism is not so much “how you feel”, but more about “what you do”. People like George, Cargo, Ray and Max Cleland served in the military for the benefit of others, and in so doing, put themselves in harm’s way, which is certainly not in their best interests. Another example might be a firefighter who risks his/her life to save someone else.
I think we all can agree that words matter. So reciting the Pledge is a very small demonstration of patriotism. It is an outward sign that someone can take a couple of minutes to stand respectfully and recite the ideals toward which the country strives. I would argue that U.S. citizenship confers basic duties, including recitation of the Pledge, standing for the National Anthem, respect for the Flag, and voting in elections. Citizens have the right to shirk these duties, but I take a dim view of such behavior unless it is done for a particular, generally short-duration purpose.
I disagree with the Supreme Court decision that allows minors to forego the Pledge. The rights of minors are already limited: they cannot vote and they are required to attend school for example. There will be plenty of time as adults for these students to exercise their right to be boorish in public.
Again, patriotism in my view is not how you feel but what you do. I have always viewed recitation of the Pledge, not as agreement, but more as a promise that each citizen will take action to achieve the ideals contained within it.
Can’t argue with anything you have said because it is your opinion–how you feel and you stated that.
Maybe the people you listed served in the military for the benefit of others or maybe they did it because they liked their job or they made decent money or had job security or thought it saved money on wardrobe. I guess each has his own reason.
I guess my only point of dissention would be the idea that military people are the patriots. Most are. But other people are ‘patriots’ also. I suppose I don’t like ‘patriot’ going exclusive.
Let’s discuss kids having to pledge. I guess I don’t think they should have to pledge because I think it is burdensome to have to mouth words for 13 years. I would rather the pledge of allegiance be recited at more special occassions. Forcing someone to say something, I feel, devalues it. I also think the school setting simply desensitizes us for eternity. No one ever forced us to sing the Stars Spangled Banner. Thank God!
I probably stated that poorly about the military. It was not meant to imply that military members are the only patriots — it was meant as an illustrative example. Maybe I am showing my own naïveté, but I think it is impossible to be in the military without being motivated by service to others because a lot of it just plain sucks. There are far easier ways to make money or have job security or save on wardrobes.
But military service is certainly not the only way to be patriotic. I think there is something very patriotic about teaching in grade school (in most cases). Teaching HAS to be about service to others, because it certainly cannot be about the salary. Historically teachers have taken on the responsibility to provide civics instruction and demonstrate good citizenship to impressionable minds.
@Kelly, you made a good point. You know, patriotism can be misleading. My dad elnlisted on December 7, 1942. (not 41) I always thought he was being patriotic and I was so impressed that he signed up a year to the day after Pearl Harbor. Ha! He did it because New Jewsey was after him, trying to draft him. I found that out years later. I think he, like many, probably highly resented being snatched away from his new wife of 6 months. Of course those people of that generation and of that war had a sense of duty that really hasn’t been replicated–the enemy was breathing down their necks.
I think teachers are fairly patriotic as a general crowd. I am thinking of who stands out in my mind…you will laugh….national Park Service folks…forest ranger types. They guard our most precious non-human resources. They aren’t getting rich either. So they must love their native lands. National Parks sort of get me….like they are the essence of America. I know…whimpy….
Thank you kelly. To me, and apparently to you, the Pledge of Allegiance is more that just “regurgitating” a bunch of senseless words. It is about the flag, “and..the republic for which it stands”. It is about “one nation (not some European hodgepodge), under God (to distinguish us from Godless states), indivisible (we fought our Civil War to settle that), with liberty and justice for all.” While other nations may come close to these ideals, there is not another nation where citizens enjoy the freedoms we have here because of patriots willing to sacrifice for the ideals set forth in this pledge.
Moon asked me, “Tell me George, could you have done those things you mentioned without the Pledge of Allegiance? I think yes–very much so.” My answer, “I don’t know but I do know this, I did what I did in furtherance of that pledge and my pledge to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States agains all enemies foreign and domestic.”
@George S. Harris
I’m opposed to using the pledge and patriotism to push an agenda. The pledge is an outward sign of pride and loyalty to the US – neither liberals nor conservatives have a corner on the pledge. I think that’s the whole point to the US. We don’t have to agree to be proud or love it.
That kid in Montgomery a county should be disciplined for not obeying the rules and direction of the teacher. I think kids should sign a contract to continue beyond 8th grade. Participation and respect required. If that environment exists then dissension has a good chance of being addressed fairly.
How are we defining “nation”? As a land mass? A recognized government? The citizenry? All of the above? If we’re including citizens, do we have an obligation to provide for their welfare in order for us to qualify as patriotic? Shouldn’t our politics reflect this?
I think there’s a difference between providing opportunity and providing for welfare. The former could use some re-engineering.
We, as a species, benefit when we associate with others. That association can take the form of family, school, religion, village, state or country. It is beneficial to be included as a citizen of a country (really any country). That country provides rules, currency for trade, infrastructure, etc. A country does not survive long unless it can command blind, unquestioning loyalty from its citizens. Therefore, the recitation of a pledge of allegiance is a method to indoctrinate its young into accepting a blind and unquestioning duty to defend and protect the nation. It makes sense.
Yea it does. how many other countries have pledges of allegiance? Does Israel?
@Lyssa
The only agenda here I think is love of country or nation.
@Censored bybvbl
I think it is generally accepted that it includes all three plus a common language and history. We have many languages in our “nation” but our lingua franca is American English.
To cherry pick a couple of Jefferson quotes regarding welfare:
“It is a duty certainly to give our sparings to those who want; but to see also that they are faithfully distributed and duly apportioned to the respective wants of those receivers.” –Thomas Jefferson to Megear, 1823.
“I sincerely pray that all the members of the human family may, in the time prescribed by the Father of us all, find themselves securely established in the enjoyment of life, liberty and happiness.” –Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Address, 1807.
But to define what “enjoyment of life, liberty and happiness”, it may be necessary to turn to Abraham Maslow’s “Hierarchy of Needs”–
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
How far one needs to move up the hierarchy pyramid is an individual determination but as a nation, I believe we have a responsibility to see that all citizens’ PHYSIOLOGICAL and perhaps most of their SAFETY needs are met. Part of meeting the SAFETY needs may be providing opportunity for things like employment and resources (education for example). The very top of the pyramid, SELF-ACTUALIZATION, again, is an individual thing. The per on who drives the garbage truck may reach that level if it provides him/her the other things they need.The same could be said for the street sweeper who sweeps up the horse manure after the parade–it may be a lowly job but it that person is the best one in town, there may be pride in that work.
They have Mossad. My heroes.
@george
That’s the only agenda there should be. Unfortunately, it gets yanked into other arenas.
The recitation by children in school provides a cultural influence. It shows them that we find “these things” to be important, whether THEY believe it or not. Doing it year after year provides continuity.
Unless they are foreign citizens, should they NOT have allegiance to this republic? If not, then to what country should they be pledging allegiance. If one repeats this over and over and never decides to delve into it…or accept it….the problem is with the reciter, not the pledge. If, as an adult, they decide not to pledge, that is their right. Since it has been determined that children need not recite it, then they should stand out of respect for the others, out of politeness, silently.
http://youtu.be/eMR6d_9GsCQ
This video states my position perfectly.
I agree that one who choses not to say it must sit quietly and not disturb others. It is just common good manners.
I think all children should learn the pledge, the same as they should recognize the preamble, the main parts of the Declaration of Independence and yes, even the Gettysberg address. They should know the first verse of the Stars Spangled Banner and that Washignton Dc is the nation’s capital. They should also know America.
I think the daily recitation really is over-kill and that it might be more meaningful to have a quarterly ceremony in school. This is just my opinion, however.
@ Cargo–Guess you have to be in the club to understand–right?. Secret handshake and all. Have always loved that piece by Red Skelton–wish I had found it. It sums up the whole thing for me. I don’t think I stated that military folks were the only patriots, what I said was that a military career is the post graduate course in citizenship. Name me any other career that puts the same demands on its members or requires the same amount of sacrifice–law enforcement and firefighting come close but close may only count in horse shoes, hand grenades and nuclear war.
How about career diplomats? A lot of them have them have faced enemy fire and not lived to tell the tale.
@BSinVA
They are the exception–not the rule. According to the American Foreign Service Association, 240 diplomats and personnel from other U.S. government agencies have been killed in the line of duty since this nation was founded–just about 1/year.
http://www.matthewaid.com/post/31518471605/foreign-service-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty
American military losses over this same period = nearly 850,000. More than 3,700/year. If you count all military deaths (1,326,612) then it is more like5,574/year. Either way–no other career demands or takes as much.
And what has happened with the teacher(s) and the assistant principal?
I don’t know.
@George