Yes, Sarah Slamen was removed for speaking her mind to her government. Sarah spoke for the women of Texas. She got her chance to finish telling the Texas lesgislature on the Lawrence O’Donnell show.
Here is the text of what Sarah said on the Senate floor:
[Sarah Slamen]
Thank you, Chair Committee, my name is Sarah Slamen. I’m a constituent of Senator Whitmire. I’m here to testify against SB1, because I’m tired of Republican primary politics, misogyny, and greed dominating the state I was born, raised, and schooled in.And you know, I had some really eloquent remarks written out, but you guys have just worn me down all day. With all this terrible science, and glad-handing, and to be frank I get to move to New York next month, so I don’t have to live in fear of you Texas legislators anymore and what you’re going to do to my education system, or my healthcare system, ‘cause I’m going to a state that doesn’t kill its own inmates. That’s how pro-life it is, up there.
I will thank you, though, first. It was destiny that you would discriminate against us and try to force your way inside the bodies of Texas women. Thank you! For finally working against women so publicly, and not in the shadows like you’re used to. Thank you for every single bad press conference with your bad information. Thank you for every hateful statement degrading women and girls to sex objects, and brood mares, and bald eagles, and leather wallets, like your eloquent pro-life supporters have done today.
Thank you for being you, Texas legislature. You have radicalized hundreds of thousands of us. And no matter what you do for the next 22 days, women and their allies are coming for you. Let’s start down the line: Senator Campbell, you’re an ophthalmologist, so I won’t be making you the expert on reproductive health. We can give you all the children with chlamydia and herpes in their eyes, since we don’t have Sex Ed in this state. And Senator Hegar, you are about as helpful —
[Senator Jane Nelson]
[strikes gavel] I will not allow —[Sarah]
Excuse me. This is my government, ma’am. I will judge you. [Speaking over Senator Nelson trying to interrupt] I will judge you, ma’am. Is this counting against my time?[Senator Nelson]
Yes, it is.[Sarah]
— the senator talking against me?[Senator Nelson]
Yes, it is. Yes, it is.[Sarah]
OK, well I will just go ahead —[Senator Nelson]
I will not allow you to disrespect —[Sarah]
— and talk over her. This is how big of a fraud I knew you were, for being so proud of these proceedings all night. It’s a low bar that you hold yourself to that you [One State Trooper appears in background.] simply ALLOWED us to SPEAK.And I will speak against an ophthalmologist [Two State Troopers grab her chair.] who says – [Two State Troopers grab her arms. Sarah leans forward to keep speaking.] Everyone on the internet can see what you’re doing right now. This is a farce. The Texas legislature is a bunch of liars [Third State Trooper comes forward to grab her.] who hate women. These men are paid off —
[Senator Jane Nelson]
Our next witness is Gary Oldham.Sarah: [illegible] so they can tell us what to do with the inside of our bodies…
Its’s about time someone stood up to this kind of treatment. Since when to the men of Texas get to make these types of decisions for women? What pushed Sarah over the edge was the bad science and the dissemination of disinformation. This garbage is often used to justify denying women their constitutional rights.
Go Sarah. You made a lot of people proud.
She spoke for “all the women of Texas”? You’re sure of that?
Good catch, Wolverine. I removed the word all. I am sure that there are women in Texas who very much feel the need for men and government to make morally appropriate decisions for them. I wish all of my gender were more independent, but alas, some things will never change.
You do understand that what the rage is over?
I have never had a single abortion and I am totally furious listening to these men. I am perfectly capable of making my own moral and ethical decisions since those decisions involve me. I am tired of the bad science. I am tired of the disinformation and I am sickened by the notion that these tail-holes think its fine to slap women on the behinds, call them sweetie, and then tell them what to do with their reproductive rights. There is a constitutional right to abortion.
I am pro life. I don’t like what I’ve seen during the past election cycle and since. The bad treatment and disrespect of women is extending beyond the pro-life issue. It feels like its happening BECAUSE they are women. So, while I haven’t changed my mind about abortion, I have changed my mind about those politicians behaving badly. I’d feel cleaner winning the fight without them. So, she may represent more women than you think now that this has taken on another dimension. At least in this woman’s mind.
Lyssa gets it. Lyssa doesn’t need men or government to set her moral compass.
I think we need to re-exam the terms pro life and pro choice also.
Many pro choice people are pro life. Many pro-life people are pro choice. They oppose abortion but feel confident in their own ability to make the right decisons for themselves.
I also accept that the decisions I make for myself might not be the best decisions for other people.
Does the word prophylactic mean anything to you? :O Oops, my bad!
SA, that is offensive. Totally. Tell you what.
Furthermore…that is an old man word.
I notice that Sarah Slamen tried to slam members of that Texas Senate committee over their lack of knowledge about women’s reproductive issues. Can anyone tell me what professional expertise Ms. Slamen has on that issue, other than being a woman just like the two women on the committee?
No, the “old man word” is “rubbers.”
@Wolverine
For centuries women handled reproductive issues instinctively and without any support from men. Except when ordered to produce a male. Only to find out that it was the male that should have been beheaded for that failure.
If, by reproductive issues, you mean childbirth, medicine has improved the success rate – but the majority of “women’s reproductive issues” are well understood and known by women. Does that help?
Once again, Lyssa gets it.
Lyssa — Does not answer the question. If women’s reproductive issues are “well understood and known” by women, what justification could Sarah Slamen have for castigating the knowledge of committee chair Nelson, a woman, or committee member Donna Campbell, a female with an MA in Nursing and an M.D. and an emergency room physician?
Wolverine, think about what you are saying. Just because someone has an MA in nursing doesn’t mean Jack. Maybe she specialized in prostate problems or giving shots.
Last I heard, abortions aren’t given in emergency rooms.
Women with brains realize they can’t make deeply personal decisions for others. Women with brains also don’t try to oppress members of their own gender or suppress their free speech.
Sorry, those women arent representative of women with brains.
@Wolverine
Doesn’t mean they have to agree.
You aren’t getting it either, Moon. Tell me why Sarah Slamen’s knowledge trumps the others. What do you know about her?
“Sorry, those women aren’t representative of women with brains.” Woooeeee! One mighty hurtful ad hominem there. No wonder this country is dividing.
Oh I say that without apology. Why do these women need men or the government to explain to them how to behave appropriately for themselves?
I never said Sarah Slamen’s knowledge trumped anyone else’s. She is calling bullshit on some of the erroneous crap that was said in the ‘testimonies’ before the Texas legislature. Some of these people are reading voo doo abortion stories and citing it as fact when indeed it is not.
I think Lyssa just said it all….
Neither one of us understands women’s issues. But you do. Sums up the issue!
“Because someone has an MA in nursing doesn’t mean Jack. Maybe she specialized in prostate problems or giving shots.”
Being married for over 40 years to a registered nurse who has worked all over hospitals, in clinics, in schools, at home and overseas, and as a public health nurse in Virginia ghetto and immigrant communities, all I can say is that you surely jest.
So let me get this straight…if someone has an MA in nursing, they are automatically endowed with great wisdom and knowledge? I wouldn’t make that claim about anyone in any profession that I didn’t know.
An MA doesn’t necessarily mean anything in any field. It certainly doesn’t give them the right to make reproductive decisions for anyone else other than themelves. It certainly doesn’t mean to hand over one’s constitutional right to the governemnt.
Great! Thanks to your wife’s background, you’re wise to women’s problems.
No matter what you say about all the things you know about women, you have never
had to face an unwanted pregnancy, and I’m sure that neither has your wife. You are both very fortunate.
Punchak — When have I ever said I know all things about women? Instead of addressing the questions asked, you, Lyssa, and Moon are just throwing things at me that I did not say and then assuming things about my life that you do not know. Now, let us get back to the issue at hand. This thread has made young Sarah Slamen into some sort of pro-choice heroine while she claims no one in the Texas legislature knows crap about women’s reproductive issues and abortion, not even a graduate of medical school. You all put young Sarah up there on a your pedestal. So, tell me what you know about your new heroine, other than what you see on that video.
No one has accused you of anything other than what is in print.
Sarah Slamen didnt say no one in the Texas legislature knows crap about womens reproductive issues. She is saying some of the people who are spewing lies and disinformation are wrong. Some of them she calls liars.
I put young Sarah up there for recognition along with a list of other brave women who have stood up to reproductive tyranny. Absolutely. She is fighting for her constitutional rights. Good for her. Its about time the young women started standing up to this paternalism that is rearing its ugly head again.
By the way, pedestals are something men put women on. Women are not so inclined to put people on pedestals.
How does that make you understand and relate to women’s reproductive issues? Maybe you’re just better attuned to your female side than most men.
Wow. You all are talking in circles. Yeah, let us get it straight. A woman and mother with an MA in Nursing, a general surgical internship, and an M.D who is an emergency room physician and. who has long been a pro-life advocate is quite likely to know more about things medical than a 28-year-old jobless Occupy Houston organizer with a BA in Political Science. Don’t ya think?
A woman with a MA in Nursing and an emergency room MD may be considered experts on the medical aspects of nursing and emergency medicine and, depending on their professional experience, may be knowledgeable about the technical aspects of the medical procedures surrounding abortion. I don’t see that their backgrounds makes them experts about the moral, ethical, emotional, personal or philosophical aspects of reproductive issues. I don’t go to an auto body repairman or mechanic to advise me on whether I should buy a car or ride the Metro.
@BSinVA
Amen!
@Wolverine
I don’t think they know more than I do. I am a retired vintage professional woman who is both a mother, grandmother who is a pro-choice advocate.
We aren’t talking about the mechanics of abortion. Abortion has a .005% mortality rate. Much of what is being said on the floor of the Texas legislature is simply scare tactics to justify bad legislation, based on moral and religious reasons. That fine if people believe that. No problem. Don’t legislate it.
Wolverine, trust me. I get it. It is you who doesn’t get it. But keep thinking what you want to think. Maybe you think we are talking in circles because you really don’t understand the crux of what this is about to women who value reproductive freedom, whether they are pro-choice, pro-life or shades of in-between.
The fright-wing of the Republican party thinks all the world’s problems would be solved if these uppity women just stayed pregnant and at home. There would be more jobs for all the mediocre old Southern white guys (and their groupies) who benefited from the special privileges they had back in the old father-knows-best days. If you had told me forty years ago that one of the two major parties would propose the crapola that it has in the last twenty years, I’d have thought that you’d have been on one too many acid trips. Bait cast…
A laugh and a half here. You all “get it.” Anybody who doesn’t happen to agree with you doesn’t “get it” and must be insulted six ways to Sunday. Even worse, women who are pro-life and disagree with you have no brains and must be slaves of their men. Everybody who doesn’t click heels and salute is ignorant and subject to dismissal. Pro-life people cannot be experts because they probably don’t have the requisite moral, ethical, emotional, personal or philosophical tools to deal with reproductive issues (a real thigh slapper, that one). And the “mediocre old Southern white guys (and their groupies)” — whoooeee, troll city…..further words escape me.
Um, your ultra-radical Texas Jean d’Arc is jobless and does seem determined to move to New York City. Occupy Houston and the Houston Feminist Movement (HFM), with their International Socialist Organization pals, must have fallen on unproductive times. She says that her primary activist target in New York will be Police Commissioner Kelly and the NYPD. No doubt this genuis will eventually be on MSNBC with O’Donnell telling us she is an expert on police work too. Figures. She was at the Keystone hearings in Port Arthur in 2011 posing as an oil pipeline expert. Kid is a regular Einstein.
I am pro- life an no one zinged me – if you guys did I missed it. That was the point, even those that ARE pro-life see that what’s happening goes beyond that issue. The insufferable attitude displayed by some. The inference that they (mostly not all) men know better.
I’ve said it before I’ve been in the pro-life movement for decades. There are some overly involved morons carrying rosaries with beads the size of your head, those that wail and gnash there teeth and those that act violently justifying their actions by using God. Unfortunately, most of these participants are men. They drive us nuts and we ignore them. In my group though, we have become aware of the problems cited by Moon. It’s not helpful and most of my pals and I would prefer not to have them on our side. One major gender difference is the approach to victory – most women don’t believe in “at any cost”.
A laugh and a half here. You all “get it.”
And you obviously don’t…
Last night the Texas Senate passed Rick Perry’s abortion ban. Critical to this passage is the fact but all but 6 clinics will shut down for the entire state. Additionally abortion for fetal anomoly discovered after 18 weeks will not be legal.
Cecile Richards had the following to say:
@Wolverine
Wolverine,
You are so typical of men who want to control women’s lives.
Please don’t let that desire to control hamper your ability to read.
You know, Lyssa has stated she is pro life. No one spoke down to her. She gave her opinion. She isnt lying and presenting medical inaccuracies. She isn’t trying to impose her will on others. She isn’t saying that she has more authority to make deeply personal decisions for the rest of us. You don’t get it because you don’t seem to understand that its ok to be pro life. It’s not ok to lie and to propagate disinformation for political purposes.
Now for your truly nasty deed. Why do you try to belittle her with your little unofficial ‘bio’ of your life? It doesn’t matter what she does for a living. She expressed her opinion. Why do you think her opinion is less important on this subject than yours?
It really isn’t. I would say it is more important because she is a young woman of child bearing years. She very much has standing on this subject. You do not.
Shame on you for trying to belittle her in order to invalidate her message.
If you think I am going to back down on this issue, nothing could be further from the truth.
@Wolverine
Furthermore, calling Censored a troll is unacceptable. She is a personal friend of mine and I can assure you she is no troll.
Why do you think you can brow-beat us into your way of thinking?
In the end, women will always have a choice. Some of those choices just wont be as safe as others. Middle class women will do as they please because they have resources. Poor women will suffer. You will pay for their offspring, unless of course programs like food stamps are cut off.
The good news is, the American people won’t stand for that.
Notice how quickly Sarah Slamen’s opponents have attempted to belittle her activism and even her college major, like political science is a dirty word.
Why not dispute her message with scientific facts rather than sneering out her bio, which may or may not be true. Its much easier to sneak around and try to discredit her as a person than it is to dispute the facts that she presented. Voodoo loses to facts each and every time.
I noticed how the dreaded smear of “socialist” was worked into the screed about Sarah Slamen. How old fashioned. I thought Nixon had opened relations with China and Reagan had caused the Berlin Wall to fall. I guess as long as there are old Cold War warriors (cough, cough) there will be a drummed up Socialist enemy. Unless we’re talking about those damn ancestors of mine, the Scandinavians.
Come now, Moon. Let’s be fair here, and exercise some memory before trying the slams. The last time Censored and I tangled, she tried to chide me about how she used her keyboard to say things that would get me going, so to speak. She said it. I didn’t. She sounded like she enjoyed her little game Troll.
Speaking of the past, all these admonitions that I, as a man, couldn’t possibly understand this issue really do ring an historical bell. There was a day not long ago when the man said to the woman: “My dear, you ladies couldn’t possibly understand things like war and politics and business. Don’t you bother your pretty little head about such things. You know that, even if we gave you the right to vote, you wouldn’t know how to vote because you just don’t “get” these manly things. Now, I and the other gentlemen will repair to the library for cigars and port and important discussions. You take the ladies into the parlor for tea and cookies and discussions on how to take care of the house and children. There’s a good little dear.”
And Wolverine is told he should shut up because he couldn’t possible understand a subject which has entailed the slaughter n America of over 50 million beings on the womb. My, my, how dare I have the audaciousness to even voice an opinion on the manner — unless its a heel click and a salute.
You didn’t just voice an opinion, Wolverine. You belittled someone whohad the courage to speak out and you talked down to the women on this blog.
Frankly, let the women handle reproductive rights for women and let’s leave the vasecomties, erectile dysfunction and prostate issues to the men.
As for 50 million abortions per year…let’s have the discussion without using the emotional term “babies.”
There is serious discussion to be had about later term abortions where I think most of us can agree on the term ‘babies.’ Any idiot can accept that there is a huge difference in an abortion at 6 weeks and an abortion at 26 weeks. The place to start the discussion would be surrounding the discussion of medically necessaary later term abortions. Rape and incest are simply red herrings for the most part. The honest discussion about abortion would not include false dis-information like what you hear the politicians spouting. I can give you plenty of examples of disinformation just in case you have drunk the kool aid.
Why stop at 50 million? Over what period of time do you want to make the claim of 50 million abortions? Do you think that abortion started in 1973? According to the Washington Post, there were about a million abortions per year BEFORE Roe v Wade. If we are going to speak numbers, then lets be honest. Middle class women had safer abortions, often in a physician’s office. Poor women had dangerous ones because they had people like Gosnell performing them, often without the medical degree. Illegal abortion paid many a med student’s way through medical school.
You somehow haven’t denied that you tried to discredit Sarah Slamen rather than voicing disagreement with her message. That means that your own message must be flawed. “Socialist” is a dead giveaway. Censored is right…its old fashioned. Worse than that, it shows that there has to be an enemy. Knowing that calling her a liberal wouldn’t quite cut it here, you went for socialist. I could care less about her credentials. I liked what she had to say and I agree with her. Good for her for calling bullshit on the lies being told.
Well, Censored, I see I yanked YOUR chain this time. Ah, the old “socialist” ghost complaint.
Since Occupy Houston apparently fell on hard times, one of little Sarah’s main gigs has been the Houston Feminist Movement (HFM). The HFM holds forums on various aspects of women’s rights, including the abortion issue. Sarah is one of their panelists at these forums. One of the principal sponsors of the forums has been the International Socialist Organization (ISO), which not long ago opened a Houston branch and features HFM as a link on their international website. The logo of the ISO is a clenched black fist. The logo of the HFM is the same clenched black fist inside the traditional symbol for female. Cute copycat stuff. ISO publishes a web magazine called Socialist Worker.org. One of their recent “top articles” was entitled: “Marxism and Feminism.” The lead sentence: “Two socialist writers consider the discussion about how Marxists understand women’s oppression and the struggle for liberation.” Well, I could go on — like the time Sarah announced on the internet that she had to miss a certain meeting because she was going to attend a meeting of “Socialist Women”, where the subject of discussion was to be “The Tyranny of Structurelessness.” But, what the hey, you all appear to have adopted this little ultra-radical wannabe. You do the rest of the work. Putting the actual issue aside for a moment, I cannot understand from a strategic standpoint why you all have dropped focus on a real “heroine” possibility — Sen. Wendy Davis, once a teenage mother herself– and switched to defending such silly amateur impudence. My advice is to take the time to let your fingers do some walking on the internet before nominating your champions.
As I stated previously, dear Sarah is going to haul her radical self up to NYC to take on Commissioner Ray Kelly and the NYPD. Sure you are, Sarah. Some months ago, Sarah posted on another blog: “I think I have alienated most of my liberal friends, academic and non-academic, these days.” Hmmm. You all hear that Sen. Charlie Schumer has recommended to President Obama the appointment of Ray Kelly as a well qualified replacement for Janet Napolitano? Interesting confluence there.
Some weird attempts here to scold old Wolverine. I want to control women! Hardy har har. I am surrounded by educated and strong-willed women. They are also strongly pro-life. But from the fingerwaggers on Moonhowlings I hear that my women are without brains and completely dominated by men — all because they disagree with you guys. Horsefeathers.
Just remember, friends. This is not just a philosophical or political discussion about the rights of women or reproductive rights in our society. Behind the discussion is the very real fact of 50 million dead. That’s fifty miillion small corpses with the blood and the detached limbs and the brain fluid which flows out of the vagina as that Sopher clamp crushes the little skull. That’s fifty million little corpses with our DNA and genes whose resting places are trash bags and dumpsters or whatever and who were not given a chance to live because they were in far too many cases an inconvenience to the rest of us.
Wolverine, let’s stop with the emotionalism. You obviously know very little about first trimester abortions from your sophomoric descriptions. Over 90% of all abortions are performed during the first trimester.
Secondly, no one said your women were without brains. That is a lie. Not sure who you mean by ‘my women’ but the expression speaks volumes.
You are determined to insult Sarah Slamen who you do not know from Adam. No one cares. I challenge you to discredit her words, not her. Prove to me her words are wrong. Otherwise you are just girlie fighting with me. You might as well just have called her a Ho and been done with it. It rolls off like water off a duck’s back.
Insulting the women on here is another matter. You said:
Do you seriously think Wendy Davis has been ‘dropped?’ Why do you think that? Because I did a blog post on someone else? you even take a little dig at Sen. Davis. She doesn’t think like you do.
I would say that Sarah Slamen is a little more than a wannabe. I don’t give a rat’s ass if she attends socialist meetings or if she elongs to some Houston Feminist organization. I can’t possibly see what that has to do with her message.
The days of tolerating paternalism out of men on blogs or in the various legislatures has been over many years with me. Wolverine, yes, you, are paternalistic in your content and tone. Perhaps you don’t see it.
@Wolverine
You seem to want a leader or figurehead to follow. Many of us don’t need that. The two Texas women you obsess about are just women like so many others in this country who come from many different backgrounds, religious beliefs (or lack thereof), pro or anti choice, mothers or not, pregnant or not. BUT, the one thing we have in common is the belief that male-dominated state houses have stepped WAY over the line when it comes to trying to dictate to and control women.
As for your graphic description, I suppose you’re one of those with the large rosary beads Lyssa mentioned or perhaps one of those men marching in front of Manassas’s abortion clinic – those men who could be spending an hour or two of their time doing something helpful rather than theatric – perhaps babysitting for some stressed out young mother or volunteering at a food bank.
I don’t need a leader or figurehead to follow, Censored. And obsession? Whatever gave you such an idea? I was just recommending a bit of research before going with accolades. I was hoping the first few posts would instigate some research here before I had to go further. Alas, nobody took the hint — or wanted to admit it.
That description came from recent testimony before the House by an OB/GYN from New Mexico who has performed 1200 abortions and had a change of heart about what he does. He described step-by-step in extremely graphic terms how a late-term abortion is performed.
I have never in my life marched anywhere — except off to war. Nor, being an apostate Protestant and a non-Catholic, have I ever had Rosary beads. But my ladies do — all of them. (They keep saying they are praying for me.) And there is something else they have. As I was blogging the night before last, there was a little boy who came up to me and gave me a big hug while saying “Grandpa, we’re going home now.” I am that little boy’s grandfather, even though he has not a drop of my DNA that I know of. He has black, curly hair and his skin and features are like those of the current President of the United States. He has been in our family since the day of his birth. His birth mother, may God bless her soul forever, gave him to our family rather than taking him on a one-way trip to Planned Parenthood. The boy lives, and he is ours. Please, no more jibes about Rosaries or pro-life marches.
I don’t need a leader or figurehead to follow, Censored. And obsession? Whatever gave you such an idea? I was just recommending a bit of research before going with accolades. I was hoping the first few posts would instigate some research here before I had to go further. Alas, nobody took the hint — or wanted to admit it.
Actually, we don’t give a sh!t about what you supposedly dug up. It has nothing to do with either women’s message. That is what you don’t get.
BTW, I am happy that your grandson is in a loving home. That was his mother’s choice. I don’t know the details and they are none of my business.
For the record, plenty of places provide abortion services other than Planned Parenthood. That is another red herring.
Think of how many Planned Parenthoods have kept abortions from occurring because pregnancy was prevented.
Pro Life activities are not limited to passing legislation to shut down clinics. A great deal of the activities include providing support to pregnant women and actually to battered women. Various kinds of support include non judgemental counseling, job hunting, day care providers and so on…volunteers and armchair quarterbacking attract opposite personalities.
It won’t end by control; it will be reduced by support.
Some churches put their money where their mouth is and provide inexpensive day care so moms can work. That is a lot more productive than parading around with signs. Just knowing that there is a strong support system creates an environment where some women feel they can continue a pregnancy. Hats off to those church and community groups.
..and it sounds like a relative of yours has provided their support. I would think you’d see the alternatives clearer.
@Wolverine
At least be honest in your descriptions. Fifty million abortions over what period of time? And they are not all late term abortions as is implied and described.
I’m really curious about why you think you have the right to determine whether any woman, stranger to you or known, should be forced to undertake a pregnancy for which you are not responsible and for which you will not be financially liable. It falls under MYOB. If you want to follow YOUR conscience, volunteer in some capacity which is actually helpful to pregnant women or pressure your school board to increase sex ed. so that unwanted pregnancies are fewer.
It’s easy to mouth your disapproval but it solves no problem. I’ve known college students (and a couple high school students) who had abortions – some legal, some not. One could have chosen a shotgun wedding but didn’t. I’ve known married women who have had all the children they wanted or could afford and then had an abortion. (One of these women thought that she had started menopause.) What’s your solution? Should they MAN up and have an unwanted child? I had a disgusting next door neighbor once who never failed to tell her child that she should have been aborted. Is that what you want for some of these children who are born? The same control freaks who want to limit women’s options are often those who want to eliminate social programs for struggling families.
Oh, Lyssa, we understand the “alternatives” as well as you do; and we commend you for your pro-life stance and for whatever you may have been doing to provide needed services to resolve this problem. But please do not presume to know what the Wolverines as a family do or do not do in that regard. Incidentally, none of us have ever marched in front of an abortion clinic. We happen to think you are right and that such actions merely give rise to unpleasantries. Plenty of other ways to make a point.
That was meant as a positive. Back off, I don’t presume.
Censored — 50 million since Roe v. Wade. Look it up. Stop the carping about me. That is 50 million of the most helpless of the helpless killed merely for being inconvenient or an “accident”. No, not all late-term, but enough of them to make an old counterterrorist officer sick at heart, even after wading through the blood and guts of slain innocents for years. It seems to me that, in all those years (and I went through them) of our second historical wave of feminism, when women were rightly, in my opinion, declaring their freedom from men and their right to power and position on their own merit. the one thing they let slip was ensuring their self-endowment of power to say “No!” to the predator male.
So, instead of doing that, we wind up with a sexual revolution that turned the country into a literal porn factory, with the product available to our children and the resultant sexual misadventures at earlier and earlier ages. And while the woman has to deal with, inter alia, the Pill, the IUD, the Morning After Pill, and perhaps ultimately the abortionist’s clinic to kill her own offspring, the male predator finds it easier and easier to plant his wick in the woman and then walk away almost totally without consequence. Why don’t you woman wake up to that? Millions upon millions of abortions. Huge numbers of children without fathers in the home. And the answer is to excuse ourselves for turning clinics into charnel houses for unwanted children. Sorry, count me out of that shit. This country needs a whole new mental makeover on many, many fronts, not the least of which is empowering women to say “Not on your life!” when appropriate to the guy trying to take off her panties for his own pleasure. Excuse my English.
Good Lord, Moon. You applaud Sarah Slamen for tossing insults in public testimony at members of that Texas Senate committee. But I am a naughty boy for speaking my piece on this blog without obeying your rules of debate?
Sophomoric descriptions, eh, Moon? Come on, now. You want I should post the verbatim transcript of that OB/GYN abortion doctor’s expose before the House committee? That bit about late abortions came directly from his testimony. Maybe more people in this debate should be obliged to come face to face with the reality of what they so easiy advocate. It isn’t very pretty.
Wolverine, you are missing the point. In your arrogance and sense of being right, you aren’t hearing what anyone else is saying.
You know, I have no sympathy for reformed abortion doctors who flip on the subject. Do you seriously think that this dude just did it for the spirit of the thing. Bullcrap no. I guarantee you he was into making money, lots of money especially if he was doing 2nd trimesters on up. Perhaps he was another Gosnell who needed to cleanse his soul. By the way, all the laws in the world wouldn’t have stopped Gosnell, any more than they can stop the crumbs who practice bad medicine in cosmetic surgery. Greed motivates them.
Maybe you should have to talk to a pregnant women struggling with her decison to have an abortion at 10 weeks. Maybe you should have to talk to a woman who very much wants a baby and just found out that the fetus she is carrying has some syndrome for which there is no cure. Unfortunately, the problem didn’t show up until second trimester.
I am very aware of the mechanics of abortion. Anyone can pick up a book and read all the gories involved. One can personify them or stick to the medical end. It really isn’t a pretty sight. You can find videos on the internet. Is that really the point?
You don’t differentiate between abortion at 6 hours, 6 weeks or 26 weeks. Let me ask you…do you see any difference?
Would it bother you to wash the contents of a petrie dish of fertized ovum down the drain as much as it would to know that someone you cared about was having an abortion at 26 weeks?
I don’t know why you are arguing with me about late term abortions. I have not supported them now or ever unless they are because of fetal anomoly. Frankly, I am tired of you putting words in my mouth. You haven’t listened to anyone on here. You just want to dazzle us with your self righteousness and knowledge. The later is pretty limited where reproductive rights are concerned.
Any yes, your description was sophomoric and out of context. The Texas law closes down all clinics except for 6 because of architectural and structural demands. The closings definitely affect more than post 18 week abortions. Reminder, over 90% of all abortions take place before week 12.
People have different religious beliefs. We don’t all believe the same thing. You can’t just decide you are right and that fertilized ovum are more important than grown women, just because you (or anyone else) thinks the bible tells them that, and therefore enact laws according to your own religion. That’s not going to fly.
Most people believe that there is significant difference between first trimester fetal development and 26 week development. Let’s not call fertilized ovum ‘babies.’
Moreover, most of us are tired of deception and trickery being used to stamp out legal abortion. There are so many areas that both sides of this issue overlap on. The American women could solve the problem if the extemists could be muzzled and common sense prevailed. I would muzzle the churches also. They are free to preach to their own flock on the issue but leave others out and stay out of legislating morality.
Moon, stop with the “sophomoric” bullshit and the pedantry. I know all the arguments. Killing is killing; and, when it comes simply for personal convenience (as opposed to exceptions on which you and I come pretty close to agreement) it stinks morally no matter what the stage of development. I had a job in which protection of the innocent from terrorist death was primary. When we won, people lived, even though they often didn’t realize they were under threat because we did not advertise. But when we lost, well, we really lost. Then we wound up with bullet holes through heads; and throats cut from ear to ear; and blood and guts spread all over the street from bombs; and even in a couple of cases aircraft chock full of perished souls. It is not a far stretch for this old veteran of that kind of war to take the side of the most helpless of them all and to posit that those 50 million deaths in the womb have put a stain on the soul of this country. I think it sucks, and I don’t give a rat’s ass what you or anyone else thinks about my views on the matter. All I will say to finish this off is that this country would do well to suck up its moral gut and stop talking about those deaths as if it were a mere political matter or a stupid ass “War on Women.” Unable to control our own passions and curb our own actions, we wind up in a situation where we make some other being pay the ultimate price for our own failures. Shame on us.
why do you keep saying 50 million deaths? Where are you getting those figures and over what period of time are you citing that figure for?
Did you feel better when abortion was not legal and there were still a million per year? You didn’t know it and you didn’t see it. it was in the shadows and women and girls were shamed over their sexuality.
Let’s start over. Abortion is a legal procedure, regardless of what you think of it or what I think of it. The Roe v Wade decision was fairly clear about the rules regarding gestational age. Now little by little some of those rights have been whittled away. Recent legislation stopped the whittling and took great chunks out of it.
If you are opposed to abortion then what are you doing to see that it isn’t necessary? Are you supporting accessible and affordable contraception for all people of reproductive age? Somehow I think not but I hope I am wrong. That’s the very best way to eradicate abortion: end unwanted pregnancy. I do believe that I heard a note of judgementalism in the above paragraph–something about us being unable to control our own actions and passions?
I am curious why you feel you have the right to try to shove your opinion down my throat and yet I have no say. that is what you are saying to me. I have held my beliefs a mighty long time to be swayed by this conversation. Also, let me add that I have never said how I personally feel about all of this, I have only stated how I feel about the political issue.
There most certainly is a war on women and I don’t give a rat’s ass or a flying flip whether you believe it or not. I feel it in your very tone. The war is to control and dominate. Even enlightened men sometimes forget themselves.
Do you find it strange that every first lady going back to Lady Bird Johnson has been pro choice? I don’t know how Jackie Kennedy felt. I am guess she also was pro choice but I won’t go out on a limb there. Different times and she couldn’t make her opinion known.
You can feel however you want. However, I would strongly advise you not getting in the way of the women to whom this subject is critically important. The women are fighting back. All the belittling in the world (which you blatantly tried to do) won’t stop them.
If I didn’t know better i would assume that you are pissed because I talked back and wasn’t buffaloed by your paternalistic BS. We older vintage ‘girls’ are sort of hard to break.
@Wolverine
You’re offering no solutions except shame for the woman. Very telling….
Wolverine,
So, since you are so willing to FORCE a woman to bear a child, you must also be willing to put much of your personal resources to support that child. That is the only logical conclusion. Since you believe that a zygote has as much right as you, than you must be to financially support EVERY child, no matter who sick when they are born. You must be willing to financially support EVERY child, clothe it, feed it, love it, etc.
Let me tell you since you WILL never be pregnant. It isn’t easy growing the baby inside of you. And it sure is hell isn’t easy going through the process of labor. Whether you have to have major surgery via a C-section or through your vagina, it hurts, it hurts ALOT. When the government can control YOUR penis, and the pain YOUR penis must suffer, then we can talk. Until then, shut up.
And Wolverine, to demonstrate you lack of knowledge, how many abortions happened before it was “legalized” ? About the same amount! Do you know what else happened around the time that abortion was legalized? Better access to birth control. Pre Roe v Wade AND post Roe V Wade, there were about one million abortions annually. You see Wolverine, women have and will continue to control THEIR reproduction. The question is how safe it will be. The question is how many POOR women will suffer because they don’t have the same access as women with means.
Here is another fun fact for you of which I am sure you are unaware. This country ranks 48 in maternal mortality Wolverine. What does that mean? It means that giving birth, in this country, especially for poor women is more deadly than any abortion procedure which carries a health risk of .05 % post complications. But I guess since you care more about a zygote than a grown woman, those facts don’t matter.
MYO(f)B is good advice. Words I live by. Too bad you guys don’t believe in that principle when it comes to 2A rights, healthcare, or the contents or your neighbor’s wallet.
I am not sure that your charges are acurate about ‘you guys.’ I don’t think that 2A ‘rights’ fall under MYO(f)B. Anything that involves killing me does become my business. If people want to kill themselves, have at it. If they want to kill me, then that really is my own business. I resent the toilet edicts. Now, if you are in an area with a water shortage, fine…that does involve everyone else. but in areas with no water shortage…yea, MYOFB. Wallets, salt, ….MYOFB. Light bulbs, no opinion. Obama care….I will have to think about it. I think I am going to disagree though. If we as a people have to pay a dime for others, then they should have to have health care.
Or the type of light bulbs you can use, the amount of salt in your food, how large your soda can be, how much water you can use to flush with, etc…
@Cato the Elder
Ha ha. I like the (f) touch.
Very close but not quite a cigar. Although I might agree with some of your examples none comes close to telling individuals what they can or can’t do with their own bodies. There’s really nothing comparable to pregnancy.
I wouldn’t dream of thinking I could walk up to some guy on the street and say “Hey, Dude, you need a vasectomy”. Or “No, ED pills for you”. Or “Hey, you have eight kiddos already but I think you should have twelve – or none.” That’s how personal this crapola has become for women.
@Moon-howler
There actually are functioning low water-usage toilets out there! You just have to look to the Japanese for innovation.
I would LOVE to be able to walk down the street and select those who need a vasectomy or who I would deny ED pills to. Ah the power. I also have to confess that there are females I would like to permanently sterilize also but the male thing is just overpoweringly tantalizing.
TEPCO was the owner of the nuclear plants that broke down after the Tsunami. TEPCO and Koch then dropped plans to build in of all places Texas after that failure.
Not a fan even of reduced water toilets.
Me either. I hate them.
Moon,
This whole argument with Wolverine reminds me of my Daddy’s sage advice about wrestling with a pig–all you do is get dirty while the pig enjoys it. Don’t wrestle with Wolverine. It appears to me Wolverine probably spends a lot of money on burqas to keep his ladies in line. And remember a majority of the wolverine’s sustenance is derived from carrion–must really give them bad breath. 🙂