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The answer remains very unclear. Obviously they know that they can’t block the ACA. Attempting to fund the government piecemeal just won’t work. It’s absurd to try. The question remains, what do they want? Why not pass a clean CR so we can move on. No one, including them, really knows what they want.
Congress-watchers say there are at least 20 republican votes in the house to pass the CR right now. Let’s do it. Holding funding hostage just isn’t the way to do business.
Newt also said he and the President were on the phone every day. As were their staff. If Newt could do it…….
If it appears that obvious, aren’t you the least bit suspicious?
No one (or not many anyway) really wants to shutdown the government. This just happens to be the first budget where most Americans will be directly affected by Obamacare. For people who are in good health and are too young for AARP, it represents a substantial cost increase for health insurance. If Republicans can de-fund Obamacare without shutting the government down for too long or damaging the economy, they can win big for a large segment of the population.
So ask yourself who wins big as the shutdown drags on and becomes more painful. The Democrats of course. Those rascally Republicans will be blamed for causing an economic crisis and hurting government workers, even though both parties are essentially using the same tactics. That’s why the Obama Administration is going to such great lengths to shut down the monuments and make the shutdown as painful as possible.
The democrats are again demonstrating their prowess for manipulating public opinion.
Actually the democrats haven’t done much of anything. I believe they are employing that old adage about giving a fool enough rope.
I honestly have no idea what the republicans want to accomplish at this point. I don’t think they know either. both my congressman and Elena’s have both indicated they will vote yes on a clean CR. I assume they don’t mean piecemeal. That does nothing.
If the GOP did manage to take us back to the status quo on health care, where we have no pretense towards cost control and prices will continue to be set almost randomly, just out of sheer f*cking stupidity and ornriness, I will hate them even more than I’m coming to right now.
At some point an honest person has to admit they don’t know everything, and let other people try their ideas. I really hold the GOP accountable for presenting no alternative to “Obamacare”, pretending that the status quo is reasonable or acceptable, and just being obstructionist problem children.
Rick, you bring up an important point. Those opposed to the ACA do act like the status quo was acceptable. No it most certainly is not acceptable. For starters, too many people are uninsured for whatever reason. The biggest reason is that they cannot afford it. Young people think they are immortal an some people are locked out of the system because of pre-existing conditions. The uninsured cost those of us who pay a fortune.
Insurance is very expensive and the company rules. They can deny a claim and you have little recourse. A challenge is so difficult that most people give up. Employer insurance gives you no options for the most part. You take what they give you. Drug plans are even worse. You take what you can get.
This status quo is unacceptable and I am tired of listening to people gush and crow about how wonderful things are. I believe Americans will love it except for those who just want something to hate.
The Democrats are “manipulating public opinion” by just standing in place while the GOP throws a tantrum, roots for America to fail, threatens to cause financial crisis, and shows how collectively unfit to govern they are.
@Rick Bentley
“where we have no pretense towards cost control ”
Thanks for admitting that it IS a pretense.
You don’t realize it..but you are right. The GOP doesn’t have a PRETENSE towards cost control because the solution is not MORE government. The status quo IS preferable to increasing costs and mismanagement by the gov’t which gives even more power to the IRS and central gov’t.
Obamacare is a scam.
The Democrats are not just standing still. They rely on their propaganda arm in the press and are doing everything possible to make the shutdown hurt…going out of their way to hurt people.
It’s all about power and leverage: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/07/all-about-power-and-leverage-feds-shut-down-major-roadway-block-access-to/
They are perfectly willing to endanger children to make a point.
One of the comments about that story:
Obama’s intended lesson was meant to be, “See how awful life is without your Federal Family?” But the lesson learned–I hope–is, “See how awful your Federal Family can make your life if you tick it off?” We’re not seeing the absence of government; we’re seeing an excess of bad government.
Cargo, Rick meant no pretense of cost control under our current system. He is not talking about the ACA.
Fox News is simply full of crap. They are not a reliable source. You are going around picking up bits of minutia trying to prove that the evil democrats are at fault and your tea party heroes are doing the right thing.
70% of Americans polled know who is causing the problem. Just think of it as the tea party going out in a blaze of glory, because they have over-played their hand.
70%, eh? 61% of the people in the same ABC/WaPo poll say the Dems in Congress are also to blame and 51% come down on Obama as well. Meanwhile, Pew says 38% blame the Repubs 30% blame Obama, 19% blame both, and 13% don’t know. Brought to you in the interest of fulll and reliable reporting.
The latest report last night brought my stats from an ABC poll. Wolverine, I wasn’t giving a poll report. I was making a point.
Have you been on vacation? I haven’t seen you in about a week. I hope all is well and that Mrs. W doesn’t have your pelt nailed to the wall.
The GOP got what it wanted – http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?pagewanted=all – they have orchestrated an attempt to defund Obamacare – http://www.teapartypatriots.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Tea-Party-Patriots-Defund-Obamacare-Toolkit-Final.pdf – they should be shouting from the rooftops that they did it. Take ownership of the shutdown if they really think it is good.
Unfortunately, our economy is going to take another hit and slowdown once again. The US lost our AAA rating over the lack of being able to handle the financial mess and now, proven once again, will probably get another downgrade. The same wackos that shutdown government are also willing to vote no on the debt ceiling – and will allow our country to go into default. They are becoming wishy washy on default saying that technically this and technically that. I will tell you this – if a SS recipient gets their check one day late or a contractor or a bond payment – we are in default from the minds of those affected. Crippling a government and expecting the economy to grow is not good for jobs.
I find it amazing that some of these jerks can be so cavalier about social security checks not going out, Medicare payments not being made, federal workers not being paid or military personnel not getting a paycheck even though they are in harm’s way. This is part of the debt ceiling that needs to be raised.
All of these things are coming due on Nov. 1 and we do not take in enough money to meet this basic obligation. Interest payments are due Nov 15.
Entitlements? BS!
I keep hearing this “equal blame” idea and “both parties are using the same tactics,” when that is absolutely untrue. There has never been a serious effort before now to extract major policy concessions in order to raise the debt limit. This is new ground, and if the Democrats give in, it sets a dangerous precedent. Remember, it will be the Democrats on the outside at some point in the future, and we can’t govern by hostage-taking tactics no matter which party tries it.
Don’t forget, the debt limit needs to be raised for money already appropriated by congress. R’s and D’s set this budget, and not raising the limit doesn’t do a thing for the deficit- it merely indicates that the U.S. government won’t pay its bills. The Chinese LOVE this stuff. It’s one step closer to making the Yen the world’s currency…
I see that the right wing media is “energizing their base” with stories that supposedly represent the tyranny of our government officials. It olooks like it is mostly nonsense, politicized. I don’t imagine that some master planning is in evidence here. People didn’t anticipate this shutdown and there has been limited planning =- even at the largest level, look how Republicans at first told Defense workers to get screwed and now are subsequently asking them back to work. Given a screw up of the size and magnitude, it’s hilarious to me to try to make some national news story out of one park being open and another not, and so forth.
I am, literally, a swing voter. I hate to vote for either party. Frequently – and this probbaly would have been the case this year – I don’t vote, or vote for “Howard the Duck”. When I get polled, it takes forever because I don’t support either candidate, didn’t vote for Obama or Romney in 2012, am not leaning towards either candidate, and don’t respond meaningfully to the endless queries about “If we say that this guy is this, does it make you more or less likely …” People like me who don’t/didn’;t lean one way or the other seem to be a diminishing percentage, but there are some of us. Watching this crisis has completely swung me, I now see the one party (the well-meaning idiots) as preferable to the other (the cynical, destructive, hateful, irrational, unpatriotic ones). I’ve got to think that I’m not the only swing voter being swung.
So I’ll plan to hold my nose and vote for Democrats. At least in 2014.
I think well-meaning idiots is sort of cute and probably very accurate.
As an independent moderate, I have found my swing voting has a lot less swing in it in recent years, the crazier the crazies get.
@Moon-howler
Oh… It’s crap that the road is shut down? It’s crap that they closed it down knowing that buses cannot travel on other roads?
I’m picking up these things because the propaganda arm of the President won’t cover reports critical of the shut down.
NYC arrested veterans holding a vigil against suicide at a NY war memorial.
The same NYC police that let OCCUPY trash the city for months.
DC will allow illegal aliens to use the Mall but not US citizens.
Americans are pulled out of their homes by threat of arrest.
Businesses are closed.
Private property loses access to the property.
All of the closures are capricious and arbitrary. 83% of the gov’t is still open.
And you want to put these petty tyrants in charge of your healthcare?
Cargo, your mind is really running to the absurd. What you are saying is paranoia on steroids.
Actually I am not sure what is closed and what isn’t. Much of the mall between 15th and the Capitol is just grass, sidewalks, and roads. I don’t see how it could be closed.
I don’t know why the immigrant rally wasn’t postponed. Maybe they already had a permit. I don’t know who is going to do the clean up unless they are staying on the part where DC does the clean up rather than park service.
I don’t think first amendment has anything to do with it. I don’t care enough to drive up there and check it out. Is anyone in the vicinity?
Its not paranoia.
These are things that are actually happening. Who cares if they have a permit. The Mall is closed for assemblies.
As for the clean up…. I notice that you expect them to trash the place. The Tea Party would leave it cleaner than it was upon arrival.
Oh PUH-leez. I didn’t say they were going to trash the place. That is simply a lie. I said ‘clean up.’ Tourists and demonstrators leave trash. There is no trash pick up in park areas.
The tea party doesn’t make trash vaporize any better than the next guy. What you are saying is bullshit. Sorry Cargo. The hero worship is wearing a little thin. You need to take off the rose colored glasses and realize that some of those people are destroying the country if they don’t stop with their childish silliness.
Cruz has about as much of a chance of getting elected as Miley Cyrus. He appeals to a very few misguided people who have simple answers for complex issues. He is playing everyone.
How do you know the mall is closed for assemblies? Is that documented somewhere? Elena is up there now checking it out. (not why she is there but I just texted her and asked her to look)
In a country of over 300,000,000 you are going to find irregularities. Different bosses will interpret directives differently. You are acting like it is a plot. What I am concerned about are the people who aren’t getting a pay check because the government isn’t funded. Only one group can fund it. Congress. Its really that simple. No caveats, not reindeer games. Congress just needs to pass a CR without any party tricks attached.
Elena says that part of the mall isn’t closed. I don’t see how it could be. It is open space. The roads are open, there are people on the mall walking, jogging etc. The roads are open also. Elena went down Constitution just this morning.
@Moon-howler
If the memorials are closed….then why allowed assemblies?
I don’t think you can disallow assemblies because of first amendment. Where they will be is not near the monuments that are closed.
I am not defending the decision or condemning it. I am trying to understand the reasoning by gathering facts from that which can be seen rather than from partisan sources. You are trying to find someone to blame for allowing it to happen. If the streets and the lawns are not closed, then I don’t see how you allow or disallow it to happen.
If they trespass at the Capitol they face arrest I suspect.
@Moon-howler
Random walking on the mall is not the same as allowing organized assemblies.
As for the checks? Why should gov’t workers be immune to the recession? When you work for the gov’t, you are accepting the fact that your check is governed by politics.
Again, I am not yea-ing or naying whether they should be allowed to do this when the govt is closed. Just throwing out some explanations that might be considered.
Most people do not accept that they will be working for free.
Cargo, you are advocating that a small group of a minority contingency of a major political party be allowed to dictate the terms. Those said terms are deemed very dangerous for the nation. That isn’t how it should be working.
The real issue isn’t who is walking into what monument. The real issue is that the government is shut down. Why? Congress won’t fund it. Ther eis no other reason.
The debt ceiling has the potential to be catastrophic. It has to be raised. It is on money already spent, often years ago.
At the risk of reiterating something I already said – a hallmark of mine …
The FOX News viewers and Matt Drudges of the world are trying to make new stories out of “this is closed and this isn’t”, and spin this into a pointed plot controlled by villians. As if the bigger more obvious story isn’t the way the house Republicans were happy to “shut it down”, with no forethought about the military/defense/intelligence communities, and the associated impact on national security, which they only thought about in the last couple of days. They ignore the really big important things and live in a constructed world of silly stories that keep them from thinking about what’s real. John Stewart calls it “B*lls*it Mountain”, and that’s about right.
Furloughed workers cannot even volunteer their time if they want to – and they should not have to.
Are furloughed employees of contractors going to be paid? Shame that we are going to pay people to sit home – most of those people would prefer to be at work and earning their salary. And then we will pay some of these people overtime to make up for the backlog of work – where does any of this make fiscal sense.
The people who aren’t furloughed are exhausted because they are often doing the work on 2-3 people.
The people I have talked to who are furloughed by contractors are having to use vacation time, then they just don’t get paid. No one I have talked to has had any communication about back pay. they aren’t working. They either use their own leave or do without.
Does anyone know what the Republicans want at this point?
@Moon-howler
But you still need approval.
The illegal alien rally had to be approved. Otherwise, just anyone, at anytime could assemble and hold protests…..the Bikers were prevented from holding a rally during that “million muslim” march.
It is the monuments. The Government is NOT shut down. 83% is still up. Parts are SELECTIVELY shut down. And one does not need to barricade open air monuments, side of the road overlooks, throw people out of houses, etc….because the gov’t is not being “paid.” Its punitive. Never been done during any other shutdown.
Cargo, why are you obsessing over the monuments? There are about 800,000 people out there not getting a paycheck. There are kids going hungry. the monuments are small effen potatoes compared to people who can’t make their car payments, their mortgages, or pay their kids college tuition.
You can use weasel words all you want but except for that which is funded, and essential personnel, the government is shut down.
Seriously, do you not see the seriousness of the situation? It isn’t about monuments.
Open air or not, monuments attract people. Closing them off is a deterrent. Surely you can understand that lights, bathrooms, trash pick up and security are all issues that need to increase as crowds increase.
As for the rally, it isn’t illegal aliens. Let’s just call those in attendance immigrants. You don’t know their status.
The Park SErvice in its infinite wisdom doesn’t grant demonstration permits to groups that might ignite each other.
There may be a difference in a demonstration and a rally. Not sure.
Buy order of the President.
http://www.newburyportnews.com/local/x1442580373/Gestapo-tactics-meet-senior-citizens-at-Yellowstone
This isn’t even professional. And to think I used to look up to park rangers.
Cargo, are the parks “essential” now? I have personal knowledge of a situation (an unclassified one) that occurred today, that impacted as aspect of national safety, because the employee who normally performed a relevant duty was furloughed. Nobody’s politicizing that kind of thing, but it’s happening.
Because this shutdown wasn’t planned. To PLAN it, to PLAN to reduce the size of government, is another type of thing. In point of fact, earlier this year that happened – “sequestration”. Serious cuts to the size of agencies and departments and contracts. It’s very real and is still in effect.
The thing that Republicans are pretending to want, reduction in the size of government, is/was already happening at a significant level. It wasn’t somke political football in play. It happened. Just a few months ago.
The pretense that anything real or lasting is happening now is straight b***s***. This is political posturing at its finest/worst.
Cargo, just out of curiosity, where do you get that 83% of the government is still open?
@middleman
“Based on estimates drawn from CBO and OMB data, 83 percent of government operations will continue. This figure assumes that the government pays amounts due on appropriations obligated before the shutdown ($512 billion), spends $225 billion on exempted military and civilian personnel, pays entitlement benefits for those found eligible before the shutdown (about $2 trillion), and pays interest costs when due ($237 billion). This is about 83 percent of projected 2014 spending of $3.6 trillion.”
http://washingtonexaminer.com/wheres-sense-of-crisis-in-a-17-government-shutdown/article/2536862
As Rick and Moon have already said, this “selective closed parks” issue is a diversion. Another “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain” deal. I’m amazed that people will bite on whatever Fox and the tea party throw at them.
Millions of children have had their education and food supplies interuppted, medical trials have been affected, food inspection impacted, environmental oversight interrupted (EPA is shut down completely), hundreds of millions of dollars per day is being wasted, and some are worried about which parks are open. Amazing…
@Rick Bentley
No. Not essential.
But treating guests like bullies….not necessary.
Increasing the number of gov’t agents to harass or close areas that are generally open…. also not necessary.
All shutdowns have plans. SOP. Especially since the last one.
That appears to be 83% of spending that continues, Cargo- not actual government functions.
@middleman
Oh no…the closure of the other things have also been discussed….. and pointed out that those too are completely arbitrary.
In fact… those don’t need to be defunded. Bills have been passed to fund them. Reid doesn’t care about those poor people as long as he gets his way on this disaster called the ACA. Won’t even consider delaying it for a year even though the President has delayed it for his cronies in big business.
“I’m amazed that people will bite on whatever Fox and the tea party throw at them. ”
I’m not. People are stupid. Really stupid. Both political parties are testament to it.
But what does surprise me about where America has gone is how clearly and constantly the right wing roots for America to fail.
Cargo, I don’t think it’s reasonable to look at a chaotic situation and presume that someone is exploiting it willfully. If there are some type of indefensible tyrannies going on, I hope the relevant parties are held responsible for it later. But that’s a tempest in a “tea” cup, so to speak, and we’re only talking about this rather than the larger picture because the larger picture is insane and nobody on the right wants to acknowledge that.
Not a peep about 70% of the NSA and CIA slots going unmanned. Instead, immediately, melodramatic stories about veterans unable to see the WW2 memorial. Come on.
Think about the average or median mentality of the Teabaggers you know and then consider that half the group is stupider than that and those are the peeps threatening to wreck our economy.
You know, I think I am paying too much for gas. Do you think that if I threaten to not pay my bill, I can negotiate my rate down? Or does that not make sense.
Meanwhile, i just found out the amount I will pay for my medical insurance next year, at the company i work for (100,000+ employees). IT WENT DOWN. And here if I had taken FOX News seriously, I would have expected to be gouged, hard.
From all the caterwauling I have heard, you would think it was going to triple. I haven’t talked to anyone whose went up
Cargo, I finally had a chance to read the article you sent, and it’s VERY deceiving. They count money to be spent in the future like interest costs and entitlement benefits, add that money together, and then compare it to the total U.S. budget to get money still obligated, not what is being spent now. This has nothing to do with workers actually on the job, which is what a shutdown means. The congress just voted yesterday to provide back-pay for all federal workers, so they wouldn’t be counted against the 83%, even though they’re not actually doing their jobs right now. That’s just one example. You can’t compare money with work being done (or not done) in this situation.
This is one good example of why you can’t take things on face value- especially from extremist publications like the Examiner.
The big picture, nothing this President does is “good enough” – any action or inaction he takes is to be proclaimed by the right as shameful, harmful, and a harbringer of doom.
Meanwhile, the Republicans – who DID create this mountain of debt, moreso than the Democrats – have no agenda. Even with this current dramatic brinksmanship – they have no concrete agenda.
The one party acts like adults, the other like children. No-brainer for me, increasingly.
The republicans, for the most part, are NaySayers and can’t get past anti-obamacare, anti – abortion and anti-Planned Parenthood legislation. I see no original ideas or attempts to compromise. What I see is Obama-hate. Rick is right. No action or inaction is good enough.
I used to vote R locally sometimes. I used to help R’s in campaigns. I don’t even think I could do that now I am so disgusted. I would have to see some real distancing from the banana republicans. If the Real GOP can’t get the monkey breaths out of their party, their party will not survive. that would be a shame. There needs to be balance. What we are seeing now isn’t balance. It’s insanity. There is a lot of money, huge amounts, controlling the bananas. The challenges from the far right on normal moderate and conservative republicans should scare Americans.
Amazing, you and the like (Starry comes to mind) have been saying for over a year now that the Tea Party is dead, they have no influence, they are stupid, dumb, etc… yet you give them credit for shutting down the most powerful government on planet earth. Amazing..
Most of the local Republicans and some of our state Repubs are not lunatics but they’ve got to grow the balls to do what’s right for the country and their communities. (Otherwise let’s replace them with some women who know how to compromise and get things done.) The Teabaggers have been the ones flooding the City Council and BOCS meetings with a long bitch list of whiny complaints. They’re the squeaky wheels and the sane population has been neglected because of the loud mouthed few. The Teabaggers aren’t there to offer solutions to the problems they cite – they just want to whine. Some of them have posted on local blogs that they have moved. (Good riddance!) They’ll just complain about something in their new locales.
We’re still trying to pray away our mortgage.
@Rick Bentley
The Republicans created this huge debt? Only the GOP?
Okaaay then.
A couple of unfunded, long lasting wars could give one that impression. I think ‘only’ is a strong word though. Let’s say American debt.
@Rick Bentley
No….we root for AMERICA to succeed. Thus we oppose progressive policies that hurt Americans.
I would probably find what you think hurts America to be very different than what *I* think hurts America.
You seem to be more or less stuck somewhere around the monuments and the fact that our national treasures are closed because they aren’t funded.
I am hovering around over 800,000 people out of work, not knowing when their next paycheck is coming in and the fact that our country is less secure because ours systems just aren’t staffed. Kids are going to bed hungry. People who need treatments are shut out and our vets can’t get services at regional VA facilities because a silly group of men and women wont fund the government without extracting some sort of ‘toll.’
“No….we root for AMERICA to succeed. ”
Only when the Republicans have the Presidency, apparently. And that won’t be happening again for a long while, so I expect to see a long streak of conservative Americans rooting for our country to fail.
Let me try another metaphor then Cargo.
My wife and I working together racked up a huge debt over the past few years. I told her that I’m not going to pay on the credit card bills, or the mortgage, unless she does everything that i say for a while, to include spending money on what i want and none on what she wants. It’s not that I don’t love my wife or marriage. But I only love her when she does exactly what I want. Just like the love that Republicans have been showing for America.
(My wife and I didn’t actually rack up debt).
Adam McKay says he told his wife that unless she lets him watch porn openly, he’s going to cut off the electricity to the house. “Republican negotiating techniques”.
Yes both sides have spent money like drunken sailors – and we now have to pay the piper. Although the Republicans want to say that they are the fiscally responsible party we can point to many spending items in the recent past that proves that they are not the fiscal ones – War with Iraq and tax cut at the same time, Medicare Part D with no funding (a massive entitlement), growth of DHS.
Where are all the jobs from the Bush tax cuts? I believe his administration had a net loss.
During the past 5 years the wealthier has gotten wealthier (really over the past 25 years) – where is the trickle down effect of giving money to wealthy people and it trickles down – I am waiting to see it start working.
@Moon-howler
I’m not stuck on monuments.
I’m stuck on the outright petulance of an administration that picks and chooses what to close to hurt Americans so that he get’s his way. They are ADDING cost by closing monuments and enforcing it…..when all they had to do was not show up for work.
You’re worried about 800,000 out of work? Does that include the 350,000 that just returned to work? The Senate can put any number of those people back to work by passing either the House’s CR or the individual bills funding departments.
The Senate is the one that refused to fund the VA. The House passed a bill for that.
Also…. again…where’s your concern for all those hungry children of people that lost jobs or hours due to Obamacare? When we pointed out that jobs would be lost due to the ACA, the President and Pelosi LIED about the ACA.
@Rick Bentley
Let me add to your metaphor….we DID rack up bills…… We didn’t BORROW MORE to pay for them. We paid them off by scrimping and saving. Reid want’s to be able to add $1,000,000,000,000 + to the debt limit and push to the end of 2015 to get past two fiscal years and the elections. No cuts. No paying the debt. Just more borrowing.
And your continual equating of liberal policies and America is wrong. Fighting increased government growth, progressive policies, and intrusive gov’t action, is not “rooting for America to fail.”
The House tactic is telling the gambler that he can’t have more chips until he makes an effort to pay his debts. You can’t have your allowance until you get spending under control and stop blowing it on women, whiskey, and cocaine.
Your example of loving America only when its under your conditions is EXACTLY the Democrat position.
From here on the blog it looks very much like you are stuck on monuments. I think you are picking at procedure. Each department had to come up with a closure plan. Are all great? Probably not. However, the problem, as *I* see it is that it has to close in the first place, not how it is done.
As for the hungry children of Obamacare, I would blame the employers. We have to start somewhere. We should be at the tweaking stage, rather than still arguing over something that is settled law. Its over. It exists.
Every time I see Medicare D throw up in part of this discussion (and I know you didn’t do it) I think of the prescription bills my mother had when she moved to Manassas. Because she changed regions and some glitch with the assisted living place ordering the medicine, it wasn’t charged to her insurance This was back in 2005/2006. She had several thousand dollars in medicine just for 1 month and that didn’t include an expensive drug like Procrit that costs several thousand an injection.
I was able to send mother’s expenses back through her insurance plan. She had about $500 worth of gap plans on top of medicare just o this wouldn’t happen. Some company was fleecing her. How does the average person sustain those kinds of costs? They don’t. Many people don’t even bring in that kind of money in a month. medicare D was a God-send to many senior citizens. Now they get to complain about being in the doughnut hole rather than that they can only take their medicine once a week.
I cite this anecdote as proof that what might sound horrible to some of us turns out to be very popular and very needed in certain populations. None of us can help aging and not all of us are wealthy. Can part D still be tweaked? Sure. Can it be renegotiated? Sure and it should be to lower rx costs. the doughnut hole is closing. Now people only pay half rather than full cost while in the doughnut hole.
We just can’t throw people away because they have medical issues and expenses. I prefer trying to get those costs under control. I don’t think that makes me a communist.
@Pat.Herve
Where are the jobs from the Bush tax cuts? Did you miss the 5% unemployment under Bush? And its hard to build jobs on a “tax cut” alone…when you add additional regulations and taxes like Obamacare during the last 5 years. Trickle down is hard to do when the gov’t wants to reroute that trickle into gov’t scams.
Yes…wealthier people get wealthier. They ALWAYS DO AND ALWAYS WILL. That is the advantage of having money make money. Tearing down the rich does not make other people richer.
And since the GOP states that they are supposed to be the fiscally responsible party…why the resistance when they finally attempt to live up to their lip service? God forbid that we freeze spending, much less cut $1 from spending. It was Bush’s and the GOP’s overspending that invented the Tea Party…. THEIR lies about cutting spending.
You complain about Bush’s spending but then decry the conservatives that state we have a spending problem. And there was no unfunded war. It was paid for the same way everything else is…borrowing. Because our entitlements take up ALL of our tax revenue. ALL OF IT. If the war was unfunded…then its STILL unfunded….along with the unfunded stimulus packages and the 85 billion being spent to prop up the stock market every month. And the funny thing….even with both theaters going strong….Bush’s last deficit that he signed for…..450 billion.
Cargo, you obviously missed the crash of 2008. No, I am not blaming Bush. In fact, I give him credit for bringing in some of the big guns to avert even further disaster. TARP had to happen.
Actually, the wars were unfunded. There was no war tax or war chest from other cuts. Yes, we are paying for them today. I guess you guys can put a stop to it all though by not raising the debt ceiling. Republicans appear to be doing a DINE and DASH over all the wars in this century.
I am curious about the 85 billion a month propping up the stock market? Where is that coming from? Well, if that is happening, then we know it is going into Republican pockets for sure. It sure isn'[t going to support Occupy Wall Street.
@Moon-howler
I lost my job due to the crash of 2008.
If the wars were “unfunded” then EVERYTHING outside of entitlements is unfunded.
Where is the 85Billion coming from? The Federal reserve. Its the Quantitative Easement.
http://www.netadvisor.org/2012/12/12/the-u-s-fed-printing-85-billion-per-month-of-stimulus/
This spells it out in detail.
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/federal_reserve-qe3/money_printing-2012-2013.html
Why do you think I would take anything seriously named ‘demonocracy?”
I’m going to stop arguing with Cargo. I’m going to go full bore with the Tea Party line.
Let’s hope that the debt ceiling is NOT increased, and the worth of the dollar falls. It will usher in an era of hard choices and suffering, and put us in a position not to borrow.
So, it’ll all be for the better.
Though if we can move past the debt issue, “conservatives” will have to find another reason to think that the sky is falling … they always do … they’re always so convinced that America has seen its best days and is on the verge of immolation. And only they can save it. With the miracle weapons of tax cuts and trickle-down economics. God bless them for all they do.
@Rick Bentley
See..that is where you are wrong.
It is the Democrats saying the sky is falling. Thus the fears about the end of civilization when the TARP was demanded, GM was bailed out, and OH NO! The Sequester!
Are you saying that hard choices SHOULDN’T be made? That we should borrow until the entire budget is debt service?
Along with tax cuts/tax simplification, there must be a reduction in spending.
But I’m on record here. I don’t oppose tax hikes as long as they are used to pay down the debt…and apply to EVERYBODY. If you want a program…pay for it. I’m not for “tax cuts” which have resulted in only the top 50% paying taxes and the top 20% paying MOST of the taxes. I want a flat tax…a low flat tax. Or better… kill the income tax and go back to tariffs and a national sales tax. And reduce the size and scope of the fed’l government.
I’m glad that you’ve finally seen the light that progressive math of -1 + -1 = 2 is wrong.
The democrats were not responsible for TARP. That passed under Bush and it needed to pass. It kept Wall Street from flooding Main Street.
Like it or not…the people who understand macroeconomics a lot better than I do said it HAD to happen. I am going with their opinion.
Cargo, do you think that a multi-millionaire ought to pay the same on national debt service as a single mother working minimum wage and on food stamps?
How about a retired couple brining in 1500 $ a month social security and that’s it.
That is what it sounds like you are suggesting. That is just wrong. I should certainly have to contribute more because I can. You can’t rob the poor of what little they have.
This is what I saw under bush (and not all his fault, just during his reign) –
grey market economy – undocumented workers going unchecked getting paid cash and taking jobs away from legal tax payers. This has caused a displacement of many workers especially in the labor trades.
immigration out of control – no checks and balances on low paid workers entering the country and adding to the grey market economy.
mortgages – every tom dick and harry could get one – and they were wrapped up and sold to our pension plans. Even the creators could not figure them out. And before you say it, it was not just Barney Frank. There were many hands involved. I knew people who got mortgages that should not have, Wachovia offered a mortgage with adjustable payments, interest only notes, etc – I know that they are bad loans – but it was offered.
The so called conservatives – Cantor/Ryan/McConnel/Boehner etc voting for every spending issue they wanted. When COngress voted for war spending and a tax cut at the same time one has to wonder what they were smoking. Where was the fiscal responsibility for Medicare Part D – sure add the program but fund it. Not spend the money and blame Obama for having to borrow money to pay for it. Talk about Lip Service. Even today the same crowd will spend all kinds of money to keep open a tank manufacturer or an engine the air force does not want. Look at the Ryan budget – it does not balance either – more spending of the type of spending that he likes. What was it that Cheney said – ‘deficits do not matter’ – and as VP, he was speaking for the party.
If McCain were elected (and maybe Romney) – we would be in Iran with a full fledged war going on – and who would be stuck paying that back.
The top 20% has most of the wealth and most of the income – they should be paying more. Look where the bottom 40% are – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:If-us-land-mass-were-distributed-like-us-wealth.png – should we make the people with very low income spend more money on taxes – they pay fica, medicare, sales tax, car tax, etc.
“Are you saying that hard choices SHOULDN’T be made? That we should borrow until the entire budget is debt service?
Along with tax cuts/tax simplification, there must be a reduction in spending. ”
Yeah, to some degree. And the sequester, which is fairly hard business, is a very real step in that direction. Instead of congratulating each other on that, we’ve got a government shutdown in effect.
The way forward is SPECIFIC IDEAS to reduce spending. The only idea being thrown around right now is “defund Obamacare”. Which I wouldn’t expect to happen, because :
A. It would make the leader of the free world out as a complete rollable wimp
B. It would legitimize the idea that Speaker of the House has the ability to undo any law they don’t like. If Nancy Pelosi gets that power, she’ll come for your guns, undo all tax cuts, and put an illegal immigrant in every living room.
Is this where I make a snarky comment about having an illegal immigrant in my living room?
Seriously, I think the sequester is horrible. A discussion about where to make cuts in spending sounds like a better plan. Obviously this is where we can do some prioritizing.
Let’s face it. There is nothing Obama can do that is right in the eyes of come folks. They were like that about Bill Clinton also. I wasn’t a big fan of George Bush but I wasn’t like THAT about him. Of course, some of the same people now are trash mouthing him. Bet they voted for him rather than the dreaded Gore or Kerry also.
@Rick Bentley
Specific ideas? Name ONE program that Obama or the Democrats or the progressive Republicans are willing to even FREEZE, much less cut.
How do you get to that unless you force the progressives to the table. Reid just DEMANDED that, not only should the debt limit get raised, but we should raise it by over 1 trillion dollars and extend it until Dec 2015, so that its a non-issue for two budget cycles and one election.
Nancy Pelosi HAS that power. Its called the power of the purse and if she thought that it would work…she’d use it. She just hasn’t had the opportunity. If she wants to do so…bring it.
Get rolled? So, not negotiating is the tactic to use because he’s afraid of being seen as a wimp? ALL presidents negotiate, especially during divided gov’t. The House has offered to pass the CR if they just delay Obamacare for one year…..why not? It obviously needs improvement.
@Moon-howler
Yes, I’m criticizing him. I voted for him too. Gore is a corrupt idiot and Kerry is a traitor. Of course I voted for Bush. That doesn’t mean that I think he’s perfect. He’s only the lesser of two evils. One evil destroys the country quickly and the other just takes a little bit longer.
There’s a reason that the Tea Party targets REPUBLICANS. They spent too much money.
@Pat.Herve
The rich already pay more? How much more do you want them to pay? What’ % of their income is “Fair?”
And I agree with your opinions about Cantor, et al…..
They are part of the reason the Tea Party is here.
Why would we be at war with Iran by now if Romney was elected? Notice I didn’t ask about McCain? Who knows what that erratic SOB would do. As for wars…we ALMOST attacked Syria and we DID attack Libya.
I believe Cantor would tell you that he was tea party.
“Name ONE program that Obama or the Democrats or the progressive Republicans are willing to even FREEZE, much less cut. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_sequestration_in_2013
Kerry is, um, a traitor? Hmm.