ESPN’s cameras were in place Saturday when St. Louis Rams coach Jeff Fisher called Sam at his agent’s house in San Diego to tell the former University of Missouri defensive lineman that they had selected him in the seventh and last round of the draft.
What the cameras caught next was something remarkable — and certainly rarely seen on Disney-owned ESPN: a tearful Sam receiving congratulations from his boyfriend, Vito Cammisano, complete with a kiss between the two men.
Congratulatory kisses are common in sports, although they usually occur between husbands and wives or boyfriends and girlfriends. This one drew alternating waves of shock, anger and gratitude from around the Twittersphere and elsewhere after ESPN aired it, on a tape-delayed basis, at 6:40 p.m. EST Saturday followed quickly by a replay on the NFL Network.
Some, like GLAAD (the organization formerly known as the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Discrimination), said it was “a significant milestone,” according to Ross Murray, its director of news. “It was touching,” Murray said.
But many — including some players — recoiled: “Im not watching @espn until this Michael Sam story dies. It’s gross. I’m not tryna watch 2 dudes kiss on a sports show,” was one of the milder anti-Sam sentiments on Twitter. Miami Dolphins player Don Jones tweeted, “OMG,” though he later deleted it, and another critical comment, and apologized.
The coverage of Sam’s big moment took several months of planning by ESPN, which began preparing to follow Sam’s progress in the draft shortly after he publicly came out in February. “We talked about it in production meetings for months,” said Seth Markman, who oversaw ESPN’s draft coverage. “We knew he’d be in the draft, but we didn’t know what round. We knew we had to figure out a way to attack it.”
Was the outrage expected or unexpected? Is America ready for a gay football player? Is America, in a post-Brokeback Mountain era, ready to see PDA between same-sex couples? Is the outrage we are seeing in the media because two men are kissing? Would the outrage be different if two attractive women were kissing? From what I am seeing on TV, there is a lot of that and no outrage. In fact, I have been told lots of men like to watch, if you get my drift.
Finally, many of those who are outraged that ESPN would show PDA between a gay couple have declared that they will no longer watch ESPN. I am not believing it. The big game comes on, they will be watching. However, what was ESPN’s point? Were they being in-your-face over Michael Sam’s gayness? I am not sure why they chose to exploit this situation. It seems to me that Michael Sam could have quietly, yet openly, gone to the NFL without ESPN trumpeting his arrival cloaked in what obviously would be controversy. I am not sure the network did him or gay athletes any favors.
Lastly, I have no problem with Sam and his significant other. I have no problem with their obvious affection. I simply feel that a less forceful entry into the public eye would have better served acceptance of gay folks in a world where the ultimate hetero male exists. In other words, why beat everyone over the head with it, especially those who are not ready. Progress has been slowed because of ESPN’s greed.
First off, the level of “outrage” is not very high. This is not a particularly large issue anymore.
The denial that gay people exist has become more and more ludicrous. We all know that in a locker room there are quite likely gay dudes. The players know that and all but the most ignorant fans know it.
Which isn’t to say that this guy didn’t show some bravery. I like him. I’ll cheer for him. I’m glad the Rams drafted him as I’m from the St. Louis area and already cheer for them. My Rams sweatshirt now looks like a civil rights statement, and that’s fine with me.
As to the kiss and the arm-rubbing – I like him for it. I don;t think that it was excessive. I don’t begrudge people their right to say “Ewww”, I used to react that way sometimes to two guys kissing, but it wasn’t outrageous and I don’t think it was particularly antagonistic.
I missed the arm rubbing. I don’t dislike him for it at all. I think he has every right to celebrate however he wants with whomever he wants. I am just questioning why ESPN targeted him. They admitted they planned for it several months in advance. Was it for him and gay people or was it for them?
Maybe they were right. Maybe they were right to do the suck it up and get over it now thing. I just prefer the go along and act like everything is normal and people will get used to it rather than shock and awe.
Rick, I am not sure the rest of the world is as comfortable as you think. Even people who are acceptant of gays and gay rights still have an ewwww factor. I don’t really want to watch heteros slobber all over each other either. I would sort of like to have less PDA in public. People do too much that should be private publically, in my opinion. (this includes things they talk about publically)
This issue’s almost dead. There was a whole group of fools who used to go on and on about how people like Sam had an “agenda” and were trying to turn our kids towards an unhealthy “lifestyle”. They lost their battle. They look like idiots. They are idiots.
I’m glad that I lived long enough to see the tide turn so thoroughly on this issue. The world becomes a better and better place the further we get into time and the further away we get from stupidity and irrationality.’
This issue’s dead because young people DO NOT GIVE A S*IT about it, by and large. It’s only an issue for older people and very stupid people. As one guy I talk to noted yesterday, who is sad about all this gay tolerance, the world has changed. Even the military is quite completely integrated in terms of gay and straight. if they can do it, surely everyone else can and will. And as to this fear that it’ll turn kids gay … in point of fact there is more bisexual experimentation going on with teens, especially females. That’s perhaps the final measure of the death of homophobia, that there is hardly any social stigma in effect among the young about same-sex activity. Ring the bell, this issue’s dead.
I think you are right about the females. I watch several shows on the CW and there are several sub-themes involving female to female interaction. The CW is very young. I have also noted a little of that on network shows. In fact, Rosemary’s baby comes to mind.
If the military can adjust….anyone can.
I still don’t think ESPN did Sam any favors. It just seemed to stir up all the homophobes.
Him being drafted was a close call though. I assume, because the NFL IS homophooic and has tolerated it.
I’m no NFL draft expert but it seems to me Sam would normally have been picked by the 4th or 5th round. Somebody would normally have taken a flyer on him by then.
Meanwhile, this is a league where nobody wanted to pick up all-pro safety Kerry Rhodes last year, after his boyfriend outed him. This is a league where the show “Playmakers” was forced off the air by Jeff Lurie in 2003 primarily because it depicted a gay football player. This is a league where a punter (Chris Kluwe) lost his job this year apparently because his positions coach couldn’t stomach his public support for gay rights. The league has tolerated homophobia and been slow on the uptake here. The Rams did them a big favor leading the way here.
Bullshit. Know how many successful DEs there are in the NFL that stand 6’2″ and weigh 250? That’s right, zero. He can’t play DE in the NFL. I frankly wouldn’t have wasted a pick on him (but I would have invited him to camp). Drafting Sam with the hope of him playing OLB is a huge gamble on someone who sucked at the Combine. Also, they switched him to OLB in the Senior Bowl and he struggled with the position. 10 bucks says that Sam knew all this about himself (he’s no dummy) and came out way before the draft just to try and guilt a team into drafting the poor little gay dude.
Kerry Rhodes is a good safety but wanted too much money. He got offered single year contracts but he didn’t want to come to terms. My guess is the personnel guys know something we don’t about injuries, durability, etc.
As to ESPN I don’t particularly want to see a man and a woman swapping spit when I watch that channel either. I tune in to get away from that stuff. I don’t want to hear about how “brave” the gay dude is. I get it. The number of fu*ks that I give about it is zero. Keep the politics and social agenda crap off my sports channels please.
Yea!!!! Now we have a football column!!! Maybe Mr. Howler will start blogging!!!
Time will tell, Cato. Fisher seemed to indicate that Sam stood a good chance to make the team. We’ll see.
As to whether he outed himself for noteriety or favoritism, he’s damned if he does damned if he doesn’t. I think he did the right thing, and was the first guy to do so.
You may be right about Rhodes from the standpoint of some teams. But I’m pretty sure that some other teams didn’t think about bringing him in, even short-term (the Redskins could have used him, certainly) because they didn’t want to deal with the gay “issue”. We’re both guessing here.
Even if Sam were to fail at an NFL career, he was a successful college player who came out openly gay, and it pushes at this barrier in football.
Meanwhile, people have a guy to cheer for, same as Christian fundamentalists had a Tim Tebow to cheer for. As with Tebow, at the end of the day the guy will probably succeed or fail based on his own capability.
What an excellent point. It never bothered me that Tebow went through his ritual when he scored. I figured that was between him and his bosses.
It did take guts to come out in what can easily be seen as the most hetero sport in America. Real men and all that.
Anyone ever had quiche at a football party?
Now we should look forward to a gay President .. oh, wait … that’s right, I forgot about Lincoln.
An OPENLY gay President.
He wouldn’t sign a single year deal. Kerry could get signed today with any team that needs the help on a one year deal, if he lowers his expectations to something more in line with a top ten NFL safety, but he doesn’t want to do that. It ain’t because he’s gay, he’s denied it up and down and the only “proof” that exists is some pic of him hugging on his bro.
Sam is a different issue, ditto Tebow. When you pull that shit you make yourself bigger than the team. The story becomes all about which dude you’re going to kiss or whether or not God is helping you win games. I wouldn’t want to deal with either situation if I were in the front office, frankly. Actually, Tebow and Sam are quite similar situations, neither one of them has the tools to play in the NFL at their college positions and both will bring a media circus wherever they go.
Another thing you have to consider is longevity. Michael Sam might have a good season or two but if you end up playing him every down against the run he’s not going to last very long. That said, if he’s successful making the position switch I can see some scenarios where he could shine – nickel or dime edge blitz packages for example, but that still makes him a very situational player. That’s why I said I’d not blow a draft pick on him but would still invite him to camp. We will see.
Yeah, it’ll be interesting.
Former SEC Defensive Player of the Year winners :
2013 – Michael Sam – 7th round pick
2012 – Jarvis Jones – 1st round pick
2011 – Morris Claiborne – 1st round pick
2010 – Patrick Peterson – 1st round pick
2009 – Rolando McClain – 1st round pick
2008 – Eric Berry – 1st round pick
2007 – Glen Dorsey – 1st round pick
2006 – Patrick Willis – 1st round pick
2005 – Dameco Ryans – 2nd round pick
2004 – David Pollack – 1st round pick
2003 – Chad Lavalais – 5th round pick
I have an interesting scenario that I wonder might test the limits of “tolerance”. And people who know me know that I am all for gay marriage, etc., but I will withhold my own opinion on this one for the time being.
I’m a big fan of Spa World in Centreville–wonderful hot and cold rooms and a bade pool, hot/cold baths and steam rooms. The bade pool areas are gender-segregated because nudity is mandatory. Several months ago, a female patron complained because a woman was in the women’s pool who happened to have a full set of male equipment. The complaining patron was upset because she also had her daughter there with her to see this. They run a tight ship there, so the management asked the woman with the male equipment to leave. This set off a mini-firestorm, with people accusing Spa World of discriminating against the GLBT community. Spa World issued an apology on its Facebook page, but the controversy went on for a few months.
So what do you do in this situation? Live and let live?
Sam was the 249th player picked; for the other winners the numbers were 17, 6, 5, 8, 5, 5, 11,33, 17, and 142 respectively.
I say yeah, live and let live. I don;’t see how anyone saw her “equipment” in a pool in the first place.
Transgender people do exist, and everyone’s going to have to get used to that also. Adults and children alike.
Looking into the Spa World thing, I see that in their response to the Better Business Bureau, they said :
“It is our policy to not accept any kinds of abnormal sexual oriented customers to our facility such as homosexuals, or transgender(s)”
‘Nuff said, as Stan Lee used to say. I would never patronize such a business, and i’m sure many would not. They tried to blame that statement on a translation error subsequently.
We don’t get to tell other people to disppear, because we feel their presense might upset our children or cause them to ask us questions.
If I raised my child to believe that black people are all shiftless and lazy, and I take them to school and their teacher is black, I shouldn’t get to say “You need to fire that teacher; hsi/her presence conflicts with my child’s view of the world”.
Or same argument if I teach my child that women lack mental competancy to excel, and then we encounter a woman doing a job that only en did back in the good old days.
The whole argument, the whole train of thought in incredibly silly. And usually entangled in the complainer’s mind with religion, which facilitates disconnect with reality.
Plenty e would teach their kids that and pray that the person disappeared so they didn’t have to deal with it.
Many years ago the Jamestown exhibit had all this dedication to gays. It said that James was gay and that the people who came over were gay..not all but many. I thought that was unsubstantiated history. I would not have put it there. I thought the entire display was over the top and unnecessary.
If James was gay, then OK. but this was not along those lines. It was obviously agenda driven.
If you have male equipment….stay on the male side. If you have female equipment, stay on the female side. REGARDLESS of how YOU feel. Its only polite.
@Rick Bentley You can “see” because you have to be nude to go into that pool. There are showers and steam rooms surrounding the pool, so people do have to walk around a bit in their birthday suit.
Don’t people have towels?
I grew up in a place and era when black people weren’t allowed in the pool…period. That seems damn ridiculous now. I think it may upset some peeps to see transgendered people naked in the pool, but they probably should get used to it. Some folks are prudish anyway – naked people in general in a pool would shock them. It would probably be better to teach children about these differences as soon as they’re old enough to comprehend them.
Why are the people naked?
Is it a same sex pool or mixed?
For the pool in question nudity is mandatory.
Well, given the nudity, I do understand that there would be a fuss. And that some people would be uncomfortable. But I think people should not object. I don’t think there’s any rational basis to object.
@Moon-howler It’s a Korean spa, and nudity is part of the deal in the bathing area. The towels they issue happen to be very small.
Ah ok. I must have missed an essential part of this story.
“If you have male equipment….stay on the male side. If you have female equipment, stay on the female side. REGARDLESS of how YOU feel. Its only polite.”
I don’t agree. You’re actually making an implicit argument for sex-change operations for people who feel/are transgender. I don’t think they should have to actually mangle/mutilate their genitals to be considered opposite-sex.
You know, we just went over my line of understanding. When things get too confusing, I sort of give up. Do I want male parts in the ladies room, even if she/he has boobs and eye shadow? I don’t know about that. I would probably just wait if I could so I didn’t have to think about it. I am not culturally programmed for unisex bathrooms. I think it would depend on whether I knew the person or not. If I knew them, I wouldn’t mind. If I didn’t know them…
Devil’s Advocate here: What if you have equipment, but no gender identity issues, but you just feel like hanging out in the ladies’ pool?
Excellent point, Emma. How do we know that there really are gender identity issues? Some dude could slap on some lipstick and have a fun afternoon.
Well, Mr. Bentley, I see you managed to sneak your anti-religious bigotry into the conversation again. Tru dat.
The people don’t have to be naked. A small change in process makes the spa available for everyone…men, women,in between and all orientations.
Nudity is not essential to the functioning of the business unless this is a front for a lesbian brothel.
I tend to agree with what Ed just said. Group public nudity seems strange to me.
Given that these people do all want to get naked together, including with their kids, Mrs. Bentley made it clear to me last night over dinner that she disagrees with me on this one. She sees the first sighting of a penis by a young girl to be a dramatic event. I don’t think it should be or has to be.
I can see where a transgender woman doesn’t really need to go to a Korean spa in a strange city … might be better left undone … but in general I want to stick up for transgender rights.
“What if you have equipment, but no gender identity issues, but you just feel like hanging out in the ladies’ pool?”
There’s a possibility as transgender rights advance of some disturbed people defining themselves transgender just so as to get themselves into crowds of the other sex. that possibility exists now in relation to transsexuals. I just don’t think it’s anything to really be afraid of. I’d be more concerned about pedophiles in that pool, or about someone with herpes, and I don;t think they’re screening for either of those.
By the way, that was a gratuitous and cheap shot at Lincoln. The claim that Lincoln was gay has been so completely discredited, I can only assume you meant it as a bad joke. Sadly however, many people continue to push this myth, much like the false claims that J. Eager Hoover was a cross dresser. Both are completely false and thoroughly debunked, yet many people are falsely believe they are true.
I think that you’re wrong about Lincoln, though I don’t see how either of us are likely to ever prove our positions.
He effeminate characteristics were widely noted in his time. He shared a bed for years with a man whom he corresponded later about his anxiety over getting married – the exact text of which I think is the strongest argument for Lincoln being gay or bi.
Subsequently, while President, he slept in the same bed as his bodyguard (Captain david Derickson) for a time when his wife was away. Explain that. That can hardly be explained as something done out of economic necessity. Or of tradition.
If we presume that somewhere between 2 to 12 percent of people are gay or bisexual, and we’ve had 44 Presidents, how many do you think were gay or bi? And why would it be a stretch to think that the one whose voice was described as “shrill” and “feminine”, and who liked to sleep with a man in his bed when his wife was away, might have been gay or bisexual? Just because he’s a revered figure you think that this could not have been the case?
Do you even Google anything before you spout it off? Literally the first link for “Was lincoln gay” is the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_of_Abraham_Lincoln
From the link: As noted above, in 19th-century America, men commonly bunked with other men. For example, when lawyers and judges traveled “the circuit” with Lincoln, the lawyers often slept “two in a bed and eight in a room”.[31] William H. Herndon recalled, “I have slept with 20 men in the same room”
So yes, it was not uncommon for men to sleep in the same bed in the 19th Century. But that didn’t make them homosexual. There was nothing sexual about men sleeping in the same bed” Or are you going to claim that all of the Illinois circuit court was gay? Lincoln continued doing it even when he was President. This was not common but its far more believable that Lincoln continued an old habit and did not like sleeping alone.
The only claim that Lincoln was gay comes from this guy: C. A. Tripp, who was gay and died in 2003, was a sex researcher and protégé of Alfred Kinsey. He began writing The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln with Philip Nobile, but they had a falling out. The New York Times quoted Nobile saying, “Tripp’s book is a fraud”, noting that Nobile “declined to say what was fraudulent, however, because he said he was writing his own article about it”.[11]
So one guy, writing 140 years after the fact claims Lincoln was gay because he misunderstood what it meant when men shared a bed and misinterpreted what most everyone now recognizes as depression for dissatisfaction with his marriage. C. A. Tripp appears to have had an agenda in claiming Lincoln was gay and every credible historian has dismissed his claims.
While you are reading up on the subject, read up on Ann Rutledge and how depressed Lincoln got when she died. It seem pretty clear Lincoln loved her. His coldness towards Mary Todd Lincoln could more easily be explained by the fact that he married Mary Todd instead of Ann Rutledge. Or are you going to claim that his love of women (and fathering four children) was all some form of denial?
Speaking of depression, when he called off his engagement to Mary Todd (what you refer to as the strongest argument for Lincoln being gay or bi) is accepted by everyone as evidence of Lincoln’s depression. Again from the link: It was at the same time as the collapse of a legislative program he had supported for years, the permanent departure of his best friend Joshua Speed from Springfield, and the proposal by John Stuart, Lincoln’s law partner, to end their law practice.[39] Lincoln is believed to have suffered something approaching clinical depression
I’ll be the first to agree that Lincoln was an odd guy, even by 19th Century standards. But that doesn’t make him gay. There have probably been Presidents who were gay, but you need a lot more proof to make your case, especially for Lincoln. No credible historian agrees with your claim. That you persist in it says a lot more about you than Lincoln.
You seem to want to believe Lincoln was gay regardless of the facts. I have no doubt you’ll continue to believe Lincoln may have been gay, despite there being no evidence to support the claim, and plenty of contrary evidence. (Again, not even counting the four children)
“The only claim that Lincoln was gay comes from this guy: C. A. Tripp”
“No credible historian agrees with your claim. That you persist in it says a lot more about you than Lincoln.”
The definitive biographer was Carl Sandberg … who spoke of Lincoln having a touch of lavender.
Are you asserting that having four children makes him straight?
And I’m waiting for you to explain to me why, when he was President, his security guard slept in his bed.
“The studied impulse to make Lincoln absolutely heterosexual reflects a discernible societal discomfort with the complexities of human sexuality and sexual orientation, as well as deeply embedded streaks of homophobia.” – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sylvia-rhue-phd/a-family-history-provides-more-evidence-that-lincoln-was-gay_b_2169482.html
From that same article :
“One day I was having lunch with Rev. Cindi Love, the executive director of Soulforce. I was telling her about my family history, my burgeoning love affair with Abraham Lincoln and my quest for more information. “I have been researching Lincoln and found a lot about his relationships with men, and I am getting this from a many sources,” I told her. “But I am puzzled about one thing: William Herndon has not mentioned or written anything that would indicate that Lincoln was gay.”
She gave me a telling look and said, “Well, here is the missing piece of your puzzle. My maiden name is Herndon. William Herndon was my great-great-uncle, and he was gay, and he was Lincoln’s lover.” She went on to talk about how this information was handed down from generation to generation in the Herndon family.”
By the way, can we agree that Thomas Jefferson was either a pedophile or an ephebophile? (The latter. But most people don’t know the word). Something that was passed down through oral history, and whispered about in his lifetime, but not taken seriously by most historians until DNA analysis in recent times.
Since we’re giving reading assigments Furby, here’s one for you. You can reflect on how the assertion that Jefferson fathered six children whom he subsequently held as slaves, with a girl who was 14 or 15 when he first impregnated her, was scoffed at by historians and considered to be a story concocted for “political motives”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson%E2%80%93Hemings_controversy
Meanwhile, on the ground level :
S]he [Hemings] had children which resembled Mr. Jefferson so closely that it was plain that they had his blood in their veins…. He [Randolph] said in one instance, a gentleman dining with Mr. Jefferson, looked so startled as he raised his eyes from the latter to the servant behind him, that his discovery of the resemblance was perfectly obvious to all
15 year old girls often married older men back in those days. I don’t think that makes Jefferson a pedophile.
First of all, I guess if I would not take my young daughter to a naked pool. My daughter would have to be old enough to be there in the first place, certainly old enough to understand transgender or we would not be there. Second, EWWW, I’m not swimming naked with daughter and strangers anyway!
I wouldn’t do that either. Just call me an uptight American.
Congratulations to Michael Sam. If he makes the cut, he can look forward to having his brain scrambled repeatedly for a few years by 300 pound offensive linemen and possibly dying in his 40’s or 50’s.
Those brain injuries can occur at all levels of play.
Moon, I’m going to call him an ephebophile. He was 34 and she was 14 the first time he got her pregnant (by some accounts).
Perhaps once doesn’t make one an ephebophile. How many adolescent was he involved with at once or serially?
Not all levels of play have 300 pound + offensive lineman beating up on you on a regular basis. The result is called CTE at the NFL level.
RIP Junior Seau.
Its called CTE at the high school and college level also. I don’t think 300 lbs is the magic number. I have wondered if my father had CTE to some degree. Back in the days when he played collegiate football, they wore leather helmets that were pretty much like wearing a shoe on your head. He wasn’t a big man. He would be considered tiny next to Michael Sam. I think it might even be the proportions.
It’s a crazy game. Beyond the brain injuries, there are guys all over America limping around because they damaged their knees in high school football.
My father put himself through the University of Virginia playing 3 sports. He was a fairly talented athlete for his size and that’s just how they did things in those days. He was the halfback until Bullet Bill Dudley came along and stole some of his thunder My father was also the pitcher for the baseball team. Not sure what he did on the basketball team. I guess UVA used him like a rented mule.
He had some serious problems with mobility in his later years from old sports injuries. I also will always question the CTE aspect. Between ages 35 and 40 he really underwent a personality change. Now this of course is from a child’s perspective, but he became irritable and easily provoked into what I would describe as fits of rage. He would just blow up over stuff. The stimulus really didn’t match the response. a 1 or 2 stimulus would produce a 6, 7, or 8 response.
It made it unpleasant for everyone, especially my younger brothers and my mother. I got older, dated a lot and hung out with friends, went away to college, came to PWC, got married, out of the line of fire. He was plagued by unpleasantness the rest of his life. He would be the nicest man you would ever want to meet, except when he wasn’t.
No, it was never treated. My mother either hid the mood disorder or made excuses for it. She didn’t realize it could be treated. My brothers just got the hell out.
I blame football. I will never know if I am right or not. In the end, what difference does it make? He was very bitter about sports (although he watched them incessantly on television) and felt that they had consumed all his time. He felt he could have done more with his life, especially education-wise. On the other hand, his family couldn’t have afforded to send him to school.
Catch-22. Now you all know why I am a moon-howler.
Interesting.
@Moon-howler
Could well have been CTE for your Dad. Helmets and pads were pretty primitive in those days. Some real concern now about CTE in the NFL. Junior Seau, a retired all-pro linebacker, committed suicide. No one could really say why. The autopsy found CTE in his brain, a probable result of so many forceful bodily collisions during his career. His family sued the NFL. His is one case among a growing number of early post-NFL deaths, self-inflicted and not. In my opinion, the problem is that those 300 pounders are the creme de la creme — tougher and faster than anything seen at any prevous level, even the college game. Apparently even the modern protective equipment may not be enough. The whole game is faster and tougher by comparison.
I have been very suspicious ever since we started hearing about CTE as it relates to football. Something happened somewhere along the way to change a person I thought was the most wonderful dad in the world. I feel sorry that my brothers never knew him as I did. My next youngest brother is 6 years younger.
I think we will learn more and more. Ice hockey must be running a close second. I remember my father always commenting that people he knew who had boxed had taken a shot in the head once too many times. How ironic if CTE got him. Maybe it was something else. That generation wasn’t known for its dedication to enlightenment when it came to mental health.
I’m not going to bother trying to convince Rick that he is wrong about Lincoln. It’s clear he will take the slightest hint of evidence that Lincoln was gay, and ignore far more conclusive evidence that he was heterosexual.
Instead, I will say to anyone who is genuinely interested in the subject: Look at what historians say who have weighed the evidence, then weigh it for yourself. It is hard to see how anyone without an agenda can come to the conclusion that Lincoln was gay.
Rick, you asked me specifically about what possible reason Lincoln would sleep in the same bed as his bodyguard. All I can say is that the fact that you immediately leap to Lincoln being gay demonstrates for some reason that you really want Lincoln to be gay. There were multiple assassination and kidnapping plots against Lincoln. (I assume you don’t deny that) As we already discussed, there was nothing untoward or sexual about men sleeping in the same bed in the 19th Century and it was something Lincoln had done in the past. So given that Lincoln slept in the same bed as his BODYGUARD when his wife wasn’t around, you immediately leap to Lincoln being gay. Wow! Don’t you think it’s a little more reasonable to suggest that it was more out of fear for his personal safety. I don’t know exactly where Lincoln’s bodyguard slept when Mary Todd was around, but I doubt it was more than a room away.
That Lincoln had four children isn’t conclusive evidence he was heterosexual, but it certainly undercuts the claim he was gay. So does the fact that he frequented brothels before he was married. There are even rumors of two “love children” of Lincolns. Or the fact that he was almost suicidally depressed when a woman he loved died. I think any rational person would concede that Lincoln was attracted to women, which I think is a pretty strong argument for Lincoln being heterosexual. (Oh wait, that’s the actual definition of heterosexuality.)
Frankly, I don’t really care if Lincoln was gay or straight. There have been plenty of historical figures that were gay. (A couple of Roman Emperors were openly gay, including one of the best, Hadrian.) If the bulk of historical evidence pointed to Lincoln being gay, I would agree that he was. But the evidence is far more conclusive that Lincoln was heterosexual. That you can’t objectively weigh the evidence says a lot more about your biases than it does about Lincoln.
People the 19th century were less homophobic than they are now about living together, sleeping together etc. There weren’t that many beds to go around. Living space was at a premium. Hell people even left beds in their wills.
I have read the gay Lincoln stuff also. I am not convinced (nor do I care). To me its just another conspiracy theory that goes nowhere.
“Daniel, I’d feel safer if rather than watching the room from outside, you got into this bed with me. And wore my nightshirt”.
“Okay, Mr. President.”
(long pause)
“Daniel, I’d feel safer if you kept your arms around me. That way if anyone comes in and gets thr drop on you, it’d wake me up too”.
“Okay, Mr. President”.
(long pause)
“Daniel, my neck itches. Without moving your hands – because I’m worried about an intruder getting the drop on you – could you scratch the itch? With your tongue? Just lick it – yes, tes, that’s good. thank you Captain”.
“Certainly Mr. President”.
(long pause)
“Daniel, I’ve thought of a way that we can conserve body heat. What we’re going to do …”
Rick,
Just because you have some fantasies regarding Honest Abe, doesn’t make them reality. If you can’t accept that in the 19th Century men slept in the same bed with no sexual overtones, you are willfully ignorant.
Note to self: never take a shower at the gym if Rick is there. Who knows what will become “family history” in 100 years!
Yes, wealthy and important men in 19th Century America frequently chose to sleep with their bodyguards, when their wife wasn’t in town. Any historian will tell you that.
I think we all feel that urge, don’t we? When our wife is not around and there’s space in a bed, so we invite a man in to sleep next to us, and we end up in each other’s clothes? Absolutely nothing gay about that.
I doubt if very many women felt the urge to sleep with Lincoln. A hottie he was not.
Wow! You really are willfully ignorant.
Keep working on your Lincoln porn fan-fic. Maybe you can be get a movie deal for the gay porn version of Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. I can’t say I’ll go see it, but I wish you the best of luck with it.
Those of us who live in reality understand that, while it may seem strange to us today, people did have different attitudes and customs 150 years ago. Heck, VT still had communal showers in the dorms when I went there. Some were even co-ed. So yes, I have taken a shower with a woman I barely knew. And I’m sure this will be a surprise to Rick, but nothing happened.
Moon, since Abe had to pay for it as a younger man, I think you’re probably right.
@Rick Bentley
You may think so.
They may think so.
But the reality is that until they do so…they are still the original sex.
@Elena
Exactly
Furby, another point of evidence in your favor is – apparently there were hardly any gay people around 150 years ago. It just didn’t exist. It’s apparently only caught on in recent times.
Cargo – but gender is more fluid than sex. From wikipedia : “Gender is the range of physical, biological, mental and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity.”
Do you really want to encourage transgender people to mutilate their genitals? I don’t. If you feel that you’re female but were born with a penis, I say you can call yourself her and be female if you want. No need to mutilate your genitals. No one benefits from that.