When last we left the town of Greece, New York, the Supreme Court had just blessed its legislative prayer policy, announcing that expressly sectarian prayer, which persisted over many years, prior to town council meetings does not violate the storied tradition of nonsectarian legislative prayer and is therefore acceptable under the First Amendment. Since that sunny week in May, the town of Greece has been confronted by many well-meaning applicants from across the country, seeking a chance to be the legislative chaplain. This list of supplicants evidently included “someone who wanted to sacrifice a small animal, a man identifying himself as the devil, and a representative of a movement calling itself the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.” So great was the clamor to lead worship in Greece that the town decided last week to enact a formal, written prayer policy to determine who could lead prayers and who could not.
The Supreme Court has handed down some real bone-headed in the past view years. The Greece decision is one such really stupid decisions, in my humble opinion. Regardless of intent, when you must pray to participate in government, the government IS establishing a religion, albeit for a brief period of time.
Now prayer has been turned into a joke. Devil worshippers and animal sacrifice will now take the place of the Catholics and Baptists? Surely these folks should have as great a chance to be spiritual leaders as the Presbyterians or the Mormons.
Now that Greece, New York has become the religious freedom [choke-sputter-cough] mecca of the nation, many folks want a chance at spiritual leadership, it appears:
The new prayer policy limits the invocation before public meetings to individuals who represent “assemblies with an established presence in the town of Greece that regularly meet for the primary purpose of sharing a religious perspective.” The “leader” or “appointed representative” of religious assemblies from outside the town of Greece may also lead prayers, but only if at least one resident of Greece is a member of his or her congregation and specifically asks in writing. Issues around the legitimacy of any one religious assembly will be resolved by the town clerk, who is tasked with determining whether an organization would qualify for 501(c)(3) status. Finally the policy states that the town clerk will compile an annual list of “all ‘churches,’ ‘synagogues,’ ‘congregations,’ ‘temples,’ ‘mosques’ or other religious assemblies in the Town of Greece.” The new rules are explicitly based on a model policy from the Alliance Defending Freedom, the legal group that represented the town at the high court last year.
So where are the Atheists? They don’t seem to fit into this plan. Now a rather large group of folks have been excluded. Perhaps Greece ought to just give it up and go to a moment of silence, in fairness to everyone.
Hopefully, the Supreme Court has followed up on the mess they made of things. This is exactly why there should be no attempt to have prayers before public meetings. I am willing to bet that most folks don’t want to have to sit through animal sacrifice or devil worship. I expect many of those folks don’t want to sit through the prayers of people of another faith. Just a hunch. Can we only imagine our own BOCS having a bunch of sky-clad Wiccans in giving the invocation before the next board meeting?
All local governments should immediately get smart and have moments of silence. It is really the least offensive way to force the population to “reflect.”
It seems like a lot of work for those government officials when a simple quiet moment of silence would have worked for everyone. But the desire to make government smaller and leaner gets thrown out when politicians have the opportunity to use their political power to become cultural warriors with taxpayer money.
This sounds like they are trying to limit the convocations to people who actually have some connection to the town instead of trying to accommodate every nut case on the internet. That seems pretty reasonable. Have any atheists been denied a chance to speak?
Also, the town is not saying anyone “must pray” You can sit there in silence or show up late. Besides, hearing somebody else pray doesn’t magically convert you or something. It’s called being tolerant of different beliefs. Something that most (but not all) religious people are. Instead, you want to establish atheism as the state religion.
I want to establish atheism as a state religion? Where does that come from? Obviously there are a lot of atheists out there and there is no way for them to be represented in Greece. Even little old Leesburg accommodates the atheists in their court yard display.
People shouldn’t have to arrive late to avoid prayers. I don’t want any government established religion. Even for one minute, to me, is unconstitutional. That even includes MY own religion. There is no reason to force prayer on a group of diverse people.
“Instead, you want to establish atheism as the state religion.”
This is untrue and pejorative. The quality of religious expression is best when it is not regulated. This Town wants to regulate what prayer is heard in public space. It they really wanted all prayers they could just open up a blog and let people type in prayers…lots of them. But no, they want to filter out prayers that are unacceptable using regulations. You can expect administrative slight of hand will prevent any atheists from praying.
How is forbidding any religious expression not establishing atheism? Besides, if the town created a prayer blog, you’d still be complaining about it. The establishment clause is about not giving any religion preferential treatment, not obliterating any presence of religion in public life.
I think it’s funny that you have to invent a fictitious harm (that some hypothetical atheist will not be allowed to give a convocation) to make your point. Maybe you should save your outrage until an actual atheist applies and is rejected. (Of course, I’d bet good money that a town resident who is an atheist would be allowed to give a secular convocation, as they should be.)
The town is making a reasonable effort to accommodate the religious beliefs its residents. It seems obvious that the intention of this policy is to prevent a freak show from around the country (animal sacrifice guy, FSM idiots, etc.) disrupting their town meetings to make a political point. What is your problem with that?
See the regulation has already started: “to prevent a freak show”. Some religious expression will be denied because it is unacceptable. All or none is required for opening up public space to religious expression but then the regulations get creative to squeeze out fringe religions because All religions is not acceptable. Furby has already declared some prayers to be disruptive and unreasonable. That is why it is easier and fairer to have a moment of silence.
All prayers in a political forum are political speech and not religious anyway. Now anyone can use the public comment time to say a personal prayer. This is all political showboating to carve out a special time and create a convoluted selection process to show favoritism to some religions over others. I bet campaign contributions will sort the list of who gets to pray.
Ed, I totally agree. Additionally, what’s a freak show to one might not be a freak show to someone else. Snake handlers come to mind.
@ed myers
“All prayers in a political forum are political speech and not religious anyway.”
That is quite an unprovable assertion you have there. Sounds like an unsupported opinion and perhaps a bias against public prayer.
I am very biased against public prayer before government meetings. I make no secret of it.
I would say a government meeting is a political forum and for show. I can’t speak for other religions but the Christian faith pretty much guarantees that your prayers will be heard even if they are silent. Moment of silence allows everyone to do their own thing. Pray, make a mental grocery list, rehearse what you are going to say to your supervisor…..
Pray tell, to whom or to what does an atheist pray?
Not sure. Maybe pray to nature? Pray to the ascendancy of mankind? Who knows. but they should be as entitled to their show time as the next guy.
Well, if you don’t have some deity or other to which you pray, why would you feel left out of a “prayer policy”? The time is reserved for a prayer, not a lecture or an anti-religious rant. Maybe they could just sit there for a minute or two and silently contemplate their navels? They could always use public comment time for their lectures and rants.
I just gave you a few suggestions. Atheists aren’t necessarily without beliefs. They simply don’t believe in deities.
Everyone can use public comment time for prayer so why create a special agenda item?
I see a lot of prayer as praying about oneself to oneself. I suspect atheists are as comfortable praying about themselves to themselves as anyone.
Anyone watching the incident in Winter Garden FL where a citizen would not stand for the pledge and prayer prior to a city meeting? The Mayor stopped the proceedings and said he wouldn’t move on until the guy stood. The man refused and the Mayor had the police forcibly remove him.
Is there a link?
Apparently Florida is a theocracy. I would be calling my lawyer so fast the Mayor’s head would spin.
It’s clear you are going out of your way to miss the point. The point is that the town is accommodating the religious beliefs of ANY town resident. The ‘freak show’ refers to people from outside the town coming with an agenda. If there is an atheist or wican or pastafarian in town, they would be welcome to participate. But outside groups without any interest in the town don’t need to be accommodated.
The town isn’t restricting the religious practice of anybody. The are accommodating the religious beliefs of town residents.
I still find it odd that you are so opposed to religious practice that you can’t tolerate other people praying. Letting other people pray doesn’t harm you in any way.
I think atheist is often used in place of agnostic. Of course there’s always the intolerant Christian that gets involved. Shouldn’t “intolerant Christian” be an oxymoron?
@Furby, I don’t believe the town is going to do any of those things except write them down on paper in case they get sued. The accommodation for religion already existed in the public comments section. So clearly the adding of an agenda item has some religious purpose other than giving individuals a forum to say a prayer. I am not opposed to people saying a public prayer during the comment period. I am opposed to the entanglement of politics and religion by having the town council select a “featured” prayer that they can regulate and promote.
@Furby McPhee
Plenty of people have town business that might want to attend the meeting who might want their own prayers said. Teachers, firefighters and cops spring to mind.
I certainly hope you weren’t taking to about missing the point since *I* wrote the post. I think that would make me the setter of the point.
Actually, I am not so sure having to listen to weird prayers isn’t harmful. I have always felt sorry for non-Christians who continually have to listen to Christian prayers all the time. I can also think of a lot of religions I just don’t care to hear.
Finally, why does government get to control religion, even for a minute. They shouldn’t.
Furby, why do you find the moment of silence so objectionable?
How would you like someone to come in and ask Allah, God, or whoever to kill all the infidels? Is that harmful? I don’t know. You tell me. What’s to stop some ISIS member from doing exactly that?
I basically just don’t want someone else’s religion slammed down my throat.