confederate

Dailyprogress.com:

A debate over whether to pan Charlottesville’s annual observance of a holiday honoring Confederate Gens. Robert E. Lee and Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson plunged the Charlottesville City Council Chambers into chaos at times Monday.

On Feb. 17, the council is scheduled to decide whether Charlottesville will continue to mark the Friday before Martin Luther King Jr. Day — the third Monday of January — as a local government holiday.

“There is a sentiment in our community that the holiday is outdated and offensive to many, and should be retired here in the City,” City Manager Maurice Jones wrote in a Jan. 28 email to city employees.

Charlottesville does not give employees a paid day off on Veterans Day, he noted, at the meeting.

The debate Monday drew speakers from Petersburg and Richmond and letter writers from Oregon, Maryland and Ohio, some of whom signed their notes “In Honor of Old Virginia” or “Respectfully … a daughter of the South.”

Councilors admonished the crowd to remain civil before opening the floor up for debate during the first of two public hearings, but had to call for calm or quiet from the crowd several times as speakers were “booed” and told to sit down.

One woman was removed from chambers as a divided community in turn lauded and lambasted the late-January rite.

 “This is a problem of overreach from people who think they can change history,” said city resident John Heyden. He was heckled at a Dec. 15 City Council during his comments and filed a complaint to the Office of Human Rights after being removed from the dais during that meeting.

Division on Monday swung between whether the holiday served as a tribute to towering historical figures or a caustic reminder of slavery and oppression.

“If a large group of individuals feel offended, we need to listen to them,” said Wes Bellamy, an Albemarle County high school teacher and candidate for the City Council.

Don’t laugh at Charlottesville.  We might very well be next for this type of issue.   I mean we do have a battlefield.   Charlottesville has gone round and round with the issue of statues and Lee Jackson Day.   The statues are still standing in Lee Park, to the best of my knowledge.

At what point is someone with a politically correct heart going to  come along and try to tear down the Stonewall Jackson statue in the Manassas Battlefield because he fought for the South?  At what point is someone going to suggest that all mention of Thomas Jefferson be eradicated from the University of Virginia or that there be no mention of anything Jefferson in Charlottesville?   How about tearing down the Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial because the monuments honor men who were slave owners?

We cannot simply erase our history.  Nor can we allow  cultural extinction to take place on the South and its people.   Slavery was a part of our history until 1865 in many places in this country.  It happened.  It cannot be changed.  We cannot pretend it didn’t happen.  It did.   Lee and Jackson were soldiers.  They were war heroes.  They are part of our history.

I am going to have to find my old picture of Robert E. Lee and put him back in the living room if this nonsense keeps up.   Why?  Because I can and I believe if that war  was important enough for my ancestors to fight in, then I owe it to them to at least remember.   It pains me to even say that because I hate the Civil War.  I think it was horrible, barbaric, evil and ridiculous on the part of a nation.   I also think owning other human beings is horrible, barbaric, evil and ridiculous.  I can’t forget about either.  We cannot change history.

It’s not going to impact my life at all if Lee/Jackson Day isn’t observed in Charlottesville.  However, I don’t think it’s wise to allow political correctness to dictate and eradicate the cultural values of a region.  Perhaps the value of Lee/Jackson Day now is that we do discuss its relevance.  These are men who are revered all over the world, not just in Virginia or the United States.   People come from all over the world to see the statue of Stonewall Jackson, standing like a stone wall, right here in Manassas, just 2 miles from my house.  Why is that?

The discussion that evolves from that question actually makes the day worth saving.  We can all learn from it.

 

 

101 Thoughts to “Citizens of Charlottesville and beyond clash over Lee / Jackson Day”

  1. Cargosquid

    I can’t see Lee supporting the silliness of having a holiday for him.

  2. But would General Beauregard?

    Actually, it isn’t what those generals would have wanted. Its about regional culture. If the people of an area revere someone or a group for 150 years, should other people be able to come in a strip away that reverence? I don’t think so.

  3. Steve Thomas

    I am a bit tired of all these “easily offended” people trying to sanitize our history, and our culture. The constant effort to wipe away anything and everything having to do with the Confederacy, is, as you put it, and assault on the rich cultural history of the region. Washington and Jefferson were both slave owners. Martin Luther King was the descendant of slaves. Jackson and Lee fought for their homes and what they saw as the right of the states to govern themselves, without those in other states trying to tell them what to do. This is our history. We learn from it, so we won’t repeat the same mistakes again.

    We must remember the civil war, the causes, and the costs. If anything, we need to do so to ensure that we don’t have another one.

    So what about Cinco de Mayo? Many celebrate it here in the US, even though most have absolutely no idea as to what it is. It’s not, as many incorrectly believe, “The Mexican 4th of July/Independence Day”. And it certainly has nothing to do with the United States. How about “Bastille Day”? Some celebrate that, without even knowing what it is.

    So let those who want to commemorate their southern roots do so, and quit being offended if they so choose.

  4. Standing ovation, Steve. Imagine! This coming from a Yankee. (just kidding just kidding)

    That time at the Citadel was sure character building. :mrgreen:

    Yea, I am tired of easily offended people also. This country is fully of various celebrations and observances that are part of someone’s traditions.

    I am particularly tired of the culture-cide being directed at the south.

  5. Steve Thomas

    @Moon-howler
    Moon,

    I may have been raised in Boston, I was born in Texas. And yes, my time at the Citadel certainly did give me a great appreciation for Southern Culture, not to mention my many years stationed in the Carolinas. The song “Dixie” always stirs the heart, as this was the Citadel’s fight-song, played an sung with every touch-down. Actually, I have lived south of the Mason Dixon twice as long as I ever lived north of it.

  6. Steve Randolph

    From 1984 to 2000 there was a Lee-Jackson-King Day
    in Virginia. Gov. Gilmore pushed the move to two days.

    1. Hi Steve Randolph, where on earth have you been? We have missed you.

  7. Ed Myers

    I’m not intending to stray to far from the topic, but the current efforts in Virginia and elsewhere to outlaw Sharia is also an attempt to regulate culture to snag votes. Same idea, different political faction.

    In both cases the problem comes down to government involvement. When government acts [on behalf of the people] it confers group acceptance of their viewpoint. If an action is controversial, that action is going to offend someone.

    I’m tired of all the time and money wasted doing resolutions honoring this or that group or this or that cultural icon. History and culture belong to the people and government should not be involved in bestowing blessing or distain on cultural symbols. Cancel all holidays. Employees should use their paid time off bank to make a holiday out of any day they choose for whatever reason.

    If we could only outlaw legislative resolutions then some of this silliness would end. This is affinity marketing 101 for politicians.

  8. BSinVA

    I believe Virginia needs a balanced approach to hero worship. I nominate General George Thomas for a place beside Lee and Jackson. General Thomas was born in Southampton County, Virginia on a plantation and he owned slaves. He served with distinction in the Mexican-American War. He taught J.E.B Stuart at West Point.

    He also refused to break his oath to the U.S. Army and remained loyal to the Union during the Civil War. He won the Battle of Mill Spring. He commanded a heroic defensive stand at Chickamauga and crushed John Bell Hood’s forces at the Battles of Franklin and Nashville.

    He was a Virginian. He was faithful to his oath. He won battles.

    1. I think the issue is that Virginians, long before you and I were on this earth, decided to honor these men. It’s part of the culture.

      I feel certain now that there are no parades or ticker tape as part of the celebration.

  9. Censored bybvbl

    @Steve Randolph

    That combination of men to honor for a holiday had to be one of the stupidest moves made by the state legislature (I presume).

    Does Charlottesville have a holiday to honor their most famous resident, Thomas Jefferson? You know, the guy who played a large role in creating the framework for the United States.

    1. I believe they used to.

      Virginians have honored Robert E. Lee since 1889 on his birthday which is Jan. 19. . In the early part of the 20th century Jackson, born on Jan 23 was added to the special day. When MLK Day came along (1/13) the three dates were combined. People howled over King/Lee/Jackson. Lee Jackson became the Friday before MLK day. The rest is history.

      Jefferson’s birthday isn’t in January, I guess.

  10. BSinVA

    By the way… General Thomas is part of Virginia’s heritage.

    1. It sounds like it. I had never heard of him, which is sort of my point. If we go look in books there are all sorts of people to commemorate. However, people have their heroes. What’s the harm if it is part of their tradition?

  11. middleman

    Well. I wonder how appropriate it is to honor two men who fought to preserve the right for white Americans to enslave black Americans on the same weekend that we honor a black American who fought for the civil rights of his people.

    Yes, Jackson and Lee have been honored for over 100 years, but does that mean we should continue? Should we still honor those who were traitors and tried to divide the country? Who wanted to expand human slavery into the west?

    My ancestors fought for the south, but we should all thank God that they lost, not glorify them.

    1. That s certainly a valid point of view. However, what of the people who want to honor those two men? Should their rights be trumped?

      When do we tear down Stonewall’s statue? Should we even have that battlefield because the South won both battles? Where does it stop?

      Lee/Jackson day started long before MLK Day. I knew some guys who refused to acknowledge MLK day so they went to work anyway. Ok. Their choice. Jerks, but their right to be jerks.

      I guess what it really boils down to is who wins and who loses. Is it a matter of a majority being able to break down the traditions that have been in place for decades.

      what if a group wanted to do away with acknowledgement of Christmas? Would we give in to that even if the majority was non-Christian?

  12. Ed Myers

    We have Christmas off for the practical reason that most people would take it off as a vacation day anyway. It is not to honor Christmas because if that was the stated reason it would be a violation of the establishment clause. Schools have winter break and spring break to coincide with times that most families are celebrating religious holidays since it makes sense to overlap secular breaks with religious ones to minimize disruption. If the majority were Muslim I’d expect the breaks would coincide with Ramadan.

    I’m not sure that there is any respect shown for Lee or Jackson to have a day reserved for mattress and appliance sales named after them.

    1. Neither man would have probably thought it was a good idea because it would have violated their Christian principles.

      Christmas really is a federal holiday or it sure used to be. Funny how people are off on Christmas Day. For many folks that’s the only day they have off. I would suggest that the day does honor Christ.

  13. middleman

    The Lee holiday was instituted in 1889, Jackson in 1904. At that time we had Jim Crow, lynchings, segregation and the KKK was at its zenith. That was the atmosphere in which they were brought them into being.

    Look, I understand that Jackson was a great leader of his men in battle. I understand that Lee was greatly conflicted about secession and was a great tactician and leader.

    The problem is the juxtaposition of Lee-Jackson and MLK. There was a reason that they were all on the same day at one time- there was great resistance in many states to the idea of a MLK day and it was a way to acquiesce in Va. while delivering a poke in the eye. It’s well past time to correct that.

    It’s not necessarily the honoring of the men that’s the problem, it’s the history and intent and the statement that the way they’re honored makes. It doesn’t help the image of our state.

    1. I guess that’s where we differ. I don’t think it hurts the image of the state to have Lee Jackson Day on the Friday before MLK day. I always thought it was kind of quaint, if not inconvenient. Now that the banks and liquor stores don’t close, it just sort of makes me smile. It is more or less an acknowledgement on the calendar.

      I am not sure you or I either one would really know the atmosphere that brought in Lee Jackson Day because we weren’t alive at the time. From what I have been able to determine from the old people I knew, they were honoring their war heroes. No country the USA ever conquered has been treated as poorly as the South. I also know that individual states paid war reparations until well into the 1020s.

      I just think it is harmless to honor them, it doesn’t cost any one major money, and most of all, I just don’t feel like allowing part of my culture to be exterminated like it was all dirty or vile or (gasp) Southern. Our history is full of behaviors and ideas that would not meet the decency standards of today. Trail of Tears, putting Japanese-Americans in interment camps, fire bombing civilian populations, committing genocide on the Indians….the list goes on. We cannot erase these things. They need to stay alive and talked about.

      All sorts of good things have grown up out of the South. I think we have to stand guard against everything being defined in terms of slavery and the Civil War.

  14. Scout

    Nice to see the reference to George Thomas, the “Rock of Chickamagua”. General Winfield Scott was also a Virginian, and was the commanding general of Union forces at the beginning of the War. He was quite old at the time and was soon displaced, but he put in motion the blockade plan that eventually was successful. He recommended Lee to be the commander in the field of Union forces at the outset. Lee declined and went with Virginia when it seceded.

    1. Virginia really was the home of the generals, regardless of size.

      Lee only lived to be 63. Has everyone seen the PBS bio? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/lee/

    2. @BS and @Scout

      I would certainly have no problems if Virginians wanted to honor either Thomas or Scott.

      Where I stand up on my haunches is over eradicating history and culture just because it is Southern.

  15. Ray Beverage

    Charlottesville is an interesting little City; about the same size as City of Manassas. They have a five-memeber Council (3 women, 2 men). Mayor Huja is a Sikh. City Manager Jones is an African American orginally from Dale City.

    Their Vision Statement includes “A Community of Mutual Respect” which includes cultural diversity.

    I mention all this simply as it will be intersting to see, given the diversity of City Leadership and their Vision Statement, how this will all play out.

    1. Yes, it will be interesting to watch for sure. I generally think of diversity as inclusive rather than exclusive.

      Thanks for bring this snapshot of info, Ray.

  16. Steve Thomas

    @Ray Beverage
    “Their Vision Statement includes “A Community of Mutual Respect” which includes cultural diversity.”

    Wouldn’t “Mutual Respect” include allowing for established traditions, while accepting new ones? Lee/Jackson day being old, and MLK day being new? It seems that the “easily offended crowd” is more interested in “addition through subtraction”.

    How about St. Patrick’s Day? It’s a holiday commemorating a Roman Catholic missionary to Ireland. We have parades, which cost tax money. Columbus Day? Some argue that Columbus caused a genocide of native Americans. It’s a national holiday, and a day of pride for Italian Americans.

    Pick a holiday, and someone could be offended by it. Me? I am offended by easily offended people, and their Wussification of American culture.

  17. middleman

    So…following the line of reason here, the German people should honor Hitler with a holiday. After all, we shouldn’t judge by today’s standards, and he was a leader who unified his people, enjoyed wide support and led his people to many victories. Lots to like there, right? There WAS that thing with enslaving and exterminating minority groups, but that was a different time and all.

    Those Jermans- what wussies!

    1. Neither Jackson or Lee held that kind of leadership position. They were soldiers. Neither man exterminated 6 million innocent people.
      Furthermore, the Germans can honor whomever they want. Look how many neo-Nazis are running all over the countryside. I am not saying what Germans should or shouldn’t do.

      That was an apples and oranges example.
      I find the discussion singularly always going back to slavery. Why? Do you feel the same way about George Washington, James Madison, and Thomas Jefferson? How about Munroe? Most middle and upper class southerners were slave holders. Just is. Can’t be undone. We can’t unknow them because of this unpleasantry.

      Are we going to now burn every version of the confederate flag, Tear down every statue? Richmond is going to look a little naked.

      The more I hear, the more I am ready to believe that this truly is a matter of cultural extinction.

  18. Steve Thomas

    @Moon-howler
    Moon, agree with everything you wrote here.

  19. Steve Thomas

    And lest we not forget, there were many in northern places, like Lowell MA, Waltham MA, Lawrence MA, that were perfectly happy with the output of the southern slaves, as it kept cotton prices low, and fed their textile mills. It wasn’t until the rise of Egyptian cotton that these areas were “OK” with Lincoln’s freeing the slaves. Also, Lincoln wasn’t an abolitionist. He stated during the Lincoln-Douglass debates ““I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,”. Also, when he emancipated the slaves, it was only in those states that comprised the confederacy. Slave states that had not succeeded were allowed to maintain the institution. Lincoln favored “repatriation” of blacks to Africa, or the establishment of black colonies. As the importation of slaves had been outlawed for a generation, he was referring to those born on American soil. Lincoln was the original “Anti-DREAM Act” President. He emancipated the slaves as a “military necessity”.

    So, with all that historical reality, shall we cease to honor or remember Lincoln? Should we move the date out of the same month as MLK day, so as not to offend someone?

    1. I believe that U. S. Grant owned slaves well past the end of the Civil War.

  20. Wolve

    Virginia has another magnificent monument consisting of an equestrian statue of Lee flanked by Confederate soldiers looking at the Union lines in the distance. It is on the battlefield at Gettysburg.

    Should we tear that one down as well?

    1. Apparently some folks would like to do just that.

      I am just not one for sanitizing history.

  21. middleman

    Apples and oranges? Well, those oranges are pretty reddish and those apples have a distinct orange tint to them.

    Hitler enslaved people. Lee was the leader of an army formed to protect and spread a system of slavery.

    Hitler led a government that killed millions. Lee led an insurrectionist army whose formation resulted in over 750.000 Americans dying, which if extrapolated to today’s population would be over 7 million people.

    Nazism is evil, and Hitler and his generals were its proponent. Slavery is evil, and Jefferson Davis and his generals like Lee were its proponent. Today, our generals fight for America and to preserve our way of life. Lee did the same thing, and his country was the Confederate States of America and its way of life was slavery. He fought for evil, right along with my direct ancestors.

    Moon, THAT is why the discussion singularly always goes back to slavery. What do you think the Civil War was fought for? PLEASE don’t say states rights! These men were key leaders who meant to divide our country and preserve human slavery. How is that worthy of honor?

    1. Why ask if you are going to regulate what I plan to say. States rights certainly had a place in the cause list. Slavery had a part. Arrogance had a part (both sides). Northern industrialists had a part. Need for cotton had a part. there are complex answers to you question.

      Not to be trite but one persons insurrectionist army is another persons freedom fighters.

      What you don’t seem to be hearing is that I detest the Civil War. I am not defending any of it. I think both sides were wrong and that absolutely nothing was worth that kind of death and destruction in terms of human life or property. My feelings about this war serve me well. They piss off both sides.

      I will defend both generals. I will not waste my time or yours on Jefferson Davis. Lee and Jackson were both Virginians first. because their world was basically so small, they really thought of themselves as Virginians and not a lot about being Americans. In fact, I talked to my mother about this. Her grandfather actually saw the Yankees, led by Custer, come through his home. Custer’s men supposedly burned the orchards. Anyway, I digress. I asked her when people started thinking of themselves as Americans rather than just Virginians. She said she thought about WWI. Before that, people really weren’t ready to consider themselves Americans. Now part of this is limited exposure to other places and the other part was being a conquered nation. Remember also that Virginia wasn’t deep south.

      I believe today our Generals sit in Florida and command via satellite. Jackson and Lee were out in the field with their men. Many of those who fought were boys who had been drafted by the south. (just like the north except the North took them older)

      Finally, on slavery…if 10% of the population owned 90% of the slaves, why did all those non-slave holders end up fighting in this war? Of course it wasn’t all about slavery. It was about self determination also. Who was going to make decisions for Virginia? Virginians or Washington? Virginia also didn’t secede. It was all very political.

      The real question is about cultural extinction. I have a great deal of respect for Robert E. Lee. The union army had a great deal of respect for him also. Now considering where I live, how could I not adopt Stonewall Jackson? I had a dog named Stoney. I have a dog named Jackson. I have a JEB. My daughter’s dog is named Mosby. I am sure someone in First or Second Manassas bivouaced in my backyard. Why wouldn’t I name my dogs for Civil War Generals. I don’t have a dog named Robert or Lee. He isn’t really part of Manassas culture. Why does someone come along and start telling me what I can name my dogs or calling me a racist because I name my dogs for Civil War Generals.

      Hitler and Lee have nothing in common. Total stretch.

    2. I have to come back to this. I walked away and it nagged at me to come back.

      Virginia got the crap kicked out of it. Very few places in the Old Dominion remained untouched. They had also lost a big chunk of their state. Lee and Jackson are theirs. Beauregard, Butler, Johnston while Civil War heroes weren’t Virginians. Virginians thought that Stonewall and Lee were theirs and therefore were their heroes. Remember how little the people of Virginia had after the Civil War. Most were dirt poor. They had to have something to hold on to. Their culture was gone, their possessions were gone, often their homes were gone. They didn’t have enough to eat. Virginia saw more fighting than any of the other states. Battles, even skirmishes tore up the countryside.

      I feel like I honor my ancestors when I speak up for letting people have their heroes.

      It certainly isn’t all about slavery. God, get over it.

      BS, you aren’t a Virginian. I think you are racing to the text book and perhaps speaking of something that just isn’t a part of you. Think how many Virginians weren’t slave owners. They just wanted to preserve their way of life and have some self determination.

  22. BSinVA

    @ Middleman…. +1.

  23. Wolve

    My ancestors fought on the other side. At Shiloh and at Atlanta we contributed to the 750,000. But I know of no one in our Yankee family who feels particularly compelled to force Virginians to put their own history into the dustbin and treat the likes of Robert E. Lee as a non-person. We won the war. We helped to fight against Jim Crow in the North. But I guess we also fell for that old line about “malice toward none.”

  24. Kelly_3406

    @middleman

    Today’s generals (and the rest of the military) do not fight to preserve our way of life any more than they did during the Civil War. The military fights in order to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. During the Civil War there really was a view that the federal government was trampling on the constitutional rights of individual states. That was what motivated these honorable men to fight against the Army that they had been a part of for their entire adult lives. I have seen several accounts to suggest that Stonewall Jackson actually disapproved of slavery.

    I think that much of the reinterpretation of the motivations of Confederate generals comes from scholars with little understanding of the traditions of the American military.

    1. And I would like to add, real traditions of the south. There is still great stereotyping of the south and southerners.

  25. BSinVA

    @ Kelly…horse [redacted]!!!! (ed. note: any word but that one will do.)

  26. BSinVA

    @Moon-howler What is a “Virginian”? What is a “Southerner”? My Dixie bona fides are as follows. I have lived, worked and paid taxes as a Virginian for 43 years. I lived, worked, paid taxes and was educated in Alabama for 14 years before Virginia. My grandmother was from Kentucky. My first cousins are all Carolina born and bred. I lived in “Bleeding Kansas” for four years as a youngster.

    And one more thing…. I was born south of San Francisco.

  27. BSinVA

    And my great-great-great uncle was Nathaniel Routzahn. During one of the rebel occupations of Winchester, VA, Stonewall Jackson had his photo taken at Mr. Routzahn’s studio. This is the famous crooked button photo and was said to be the General’s favorite. I understand that the original photo now resides in Richmond at the Museum of the Confederacy.

  28. BSinVA

    And I even had a distant relative from Tennessee who fought with General Andrew Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans.

  29. @BSinVA
    I would say your roots aren’t in Virginia. Are you a Virginian? Now yes. My husband is a Virginian. Now.

    As far as southern goes, not sure.

    As an aside, did you know that General Ewell was from Prince William County? His Estate was Stony Lonesome.

    Does anyone know where that is/was?

  30. @BSinVA
    Did you go to the Museum to check it out? That is pretty neat.

    Andrew Jackson? Ewwwww….Cheroke killer!!!

  31. @BSinVA
    BS you know I am a horrible snob about being a Virginian. I inherited that bad trait and I cannot shake it.

    Who was that politician that referred to “real Virginians” about 7 or 8 years ago? Caught a lot of heat over it also. I would have been that person. Northern Virginians sometimes aren’t seen as “real Virginians.”

    It sort of takes the Virginian out of you.

  32. Censored bybvbl

    @Moon-howler
    Nancy Pfotenhauer

  33. BSinVA

    Stonewall Jackson was born in what is now West Virginia.

  34. Steve Thomas

    @Moon-howler

    Excellent. I tip my cap to your outstanding rebuttal to middleman’s specious argument.

  35. Steve Thomas

    BSinVA :@ Middleman…. +1.

    Moon +11!

  36. Steve Thomas

    Wolve :My ancestors fought on the other side. At Shiloh and at Atlanta we contributed to the 750,000. But I know of no one in our Yankee family who feels particularly compelled to force Virginians to put their own history into the dustbin and treat the likes of Robert E. Lee as a non-person. We won the war. We helped to fight against Jim Crow in the North. But I guess we also fell for that old line about “malice toward none.”

    And both Jackson and Lee are held in high-esteem by the US Armed Forces. As a young’ish Marine Lieutenant, study of Lee and Jackson was required reading.

    1. They were actually held in high esteem by the US Armed Forces during the Civil War. It wasn’t until the politicians got hold of the situation that things fell apart and Lee was denied citizenship. He was granted citizenship posthumously in 1975. Ridiculous!

  37. Censored bybvbl

    Define “Southern culture” or “Virginia tradition”. Maybe then we could discuss the issue. The citizens of Charlottesville will decide whether to keep Lee/Jackson day or not. Some will view the possible abolition of the holiday as an affront. Some will decide that the continuation of the holiday will be a disincentive for tourism or conventions. Much could be determined by how much of a public squabble the change creates.

  38. middleman

    Kelly_3406 :@middleman
    Today’s generals (and the rest of the military) do not fight to preserve our way of life any more than they did during the Civil War. The military fights in order to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. During the Civil War there really was a view that the federal government was trampling on the constitutional rights of individual states. That was what motivated these honorable men to fight against the Army that they had been a part of for their entire adult lives. I have seen several accounts to suggest that Stonewall Jackson actually disapproved of slavery.
    I think that much of the reinterpretation of the motivations of Confederate generals comes from scholars with little understanding of the traditions of the American military.

    Yeah, Kelly, they were trampling the constitutional right to have slaves! Try as you might, there’s simply no way (for you OR Moon) to decouple slavery as the driver for the civil war. It is simply disingenious to try. We can’t hide from or try to ignore history, we have to deal with it. Our country has done enough great things that we don’t need to try to re-write our wrongs, just acknowledge them and learn from them.

  39. Steve Thomas

    @Censored bybvbl
    ” The citizens of Charlottesville will decide whether to keep Lee/Jackson day or not.”

    Actually, they won’t. Virginia is a Dillon-Rule state, and Lee/Jackson Day is a state holiday. The citizens of Charlottesville don’t have the authority to decide whether or not to keep it. Seeing as UVA is a state-funded school…see where I’m going with this?

  40. Censored bybvbl

    @Steve Thomas
    But they can create a kerfuffle about the issue. If they decide that the city won’t honor it, the State will have to decide to intervene.

    I see no problem in statues of military men on our battlefields. I don’t think that Civil War generals necessarily have to have any holidays to honor them in Virginia. The fact that the two men’s names were intertwined with King’s for some number of years shows just how much bigotry survives in this state. It was saying to the Feds that “yeah, we have to honor your national holiday so we’ll stick King in with these Confederate generals since the dates celebrated were close.”

    I’d like a definition of Virginia values. My experience growing up in the South was one of segregation in all aspects of life except when the maids came into our houses to clean or watch the children. I don’t have warm fuzzy feelings for all things Virginian or Southern. Much of the food (barbeque, cornbread, desserts) are good, as is the Southern Gothic lit, and love of the physical land. But a lot of bad went with it. Just what is it you cherish?

  41. Steve Thomas

    @Censored bybvbl
    kerfuffle…is that a sign of being perturbed?

  42. Steve Thomas

    @Censored bybvbl
    “Define “Southern culture” or “Virginia tradition”.

    Or, you could do a bit of research yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_Southern_United_States

    I particularly like this part of the article:

    “More than any other part of America, the South stands apart. Thousands of Northerners and foreigners have migrated to it … but Southerners they will not become. For this is still a place where you must have either been born or have ‘people’ there, to feel it is your native ground.

    “Natives will tell you this. They are proud to be Americans, but they are also proud to be Virginians, South Carolinians, Tennesseeans, Mississippians and Texans. But they are conscious of another loyalty too, one that transcends the usual ties of national patriotism and state pride. It is a loyalty to a place where habits are strong and memories are long. If those memories could speak, they would tell stories of a region powerfully shaped by its history and determined to pass it on to future generations.”

    — Tim Jacobson, Heritage of the South

    And when we’re done dissecting Southern Culture and Virginia values to satisfy your need to contribute to the debate, it should be St. Patrick’s Day, and we can then dissect what Irish-American Culture means.

  43. Censored bybvbl

    @Steve Thomas

    I thought the topic was the debate in Charlottesville over Lee-Jackson Day not St. Paddy’s. (My Irish side fought with the Brits.)

    I’m not interested in whatever you can be gin up on the net. I’m interested in hearing what posters on here, as individuals, consider to be Southern tradition.

  44. Censored bybvbl

    – “be” up there

  45. Steve Thomas

    @Censored bybvbl

    Well, since you want individual opinion…I was born in Texas. Spent my early childhood there and in MD. Moved to Boston to live with my very Boston-Irish mother in the third grade. Lived the next 11 years there. While I spent many years there and have many fond memories, it never felt like I belonged there. It wasn’t until I was stationed in the Carolinas that I felt “at home”. The food. The history. The dialects. The music….and of course, the Ladies. In the south I felt at home. I attended a Southern Military College, and when I had the choice of where to settle after leaving Japan, I chose Virginia. I have lived in Virginia longer than I have lived anywhere else, and in the South for 35 of my 49 years on this Earth. I know what “Southern Culture” and when my very Boston-Irish Sista asks “when you coming home ovaheeah”…I always reply “I am home”.

    My point is, if you are Southern, you know it. If you are a Virginian, you know it. Any you aren’t ashamed of either of these.

  46. Censored bybvbl

    @Steve Thomas

    Even if you aren’t ashamed of any of the many things you mentioned, don’t you think that Virginians and Southerners should be ashamed of certain parts of their culture – parts that continued through the 1960s and have some impact on how the nation functions today?

    When you look at Virginia now, you see that NoVa, the Newport News area, and Richmond are growing as the rural population diminishes in percentage. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the majority of Virginia’s present residents were born out of state. Yet they’re as much Virginians as the natives. The small Georgia town where I grew up has changed substantially – in size, ethnicity, and wage-earning capability. Nothing is static.

    1. I am ashamed of a lot of things my country has done, not just the south. I am especially badly about how Indians have been treated and stolen from, just for an example. I am not sure ashamed is the right word though. I denounce slavery but I don’t feel guilty over it. I didn’t own slaves. I don’t feel guilty over the Berlin or Tokyo firebombings of civilian populations. I didn’t do it.

      There are all sorts of things I wish had not happened.

  47. Steve Thomas

    @Censored bybvbl
    I think the entire south should be ashamed of the Jim Crow era. The Civil war settled the issue by force-of-arms (who said war is not the answer?). Now, if I lived in Tennessee, and they wanted to have Nathan Bedford Forrest Day, I’d be opposed to it. Not for what he did during the Civil War, but for what he did afterward.

    Should the North be ashamed for the way they treated the South during reconstruction? Should Texans be ashamed of the Alamo?

    See, here’s one of the differences between you and I (and they are legion): I can look at my country’s history, warts and all, and still be proud of my country. It has and continues to do disappointing things, but I am not going to constantly tear at its foundations.

    And being a Georgian, how’s William Tecumseh Sherman in your book?

    1. Steve said “Should the North be ashamed for the way they treated the South during reconstruction?”

      Mr Cotter! Mr. Cotter!

      yes. Congress should have been ashamed.

  48. Censored bybvbl

    @Steve Thomas

    I know that natives hated Sherman. I could say in his defense that he did what he felt needed to be done.

    One of the major differences between you and me is that I don’t look to the past (forget the lecture on repeating it if I don’t). I’m aware of it and the lessons learned and not learned. But I dwell in the present and plan for the future. I’m intuitive, eager to see the future evolve, not afraid of change, value individuals for their skills and drive and not their “papers”. I’ll respect my country for the positive things it’s done and criticize it for its negatives. People and countries earn my respect. It isn’t automatically given.

    Today my husband and I discussed our different views of genealogy (micro-history, if you will). He collects all sorts of items related to his family (some books have been written about both his mother’s and father’s sides). Much of it is ephemera from online sources, some found at flea markets. I know that one of my grandfathers emigrated from Finland and the other great-grandfather left Germany in the middle of the night because he’d said something negative about the kaiser and had been turned in. That’s really about all i need to know about my family. I know where they lived and met many of them, but that I’m really not interested in snippets about people I didn’t meet. One of my great aunts has/had the Irish side’s genealogy, but I’ve never asked for it.

    I don’t think of myself as a Georgian, New Yorker, or Midwesterner even though I’ve lived in those areas. I check the “Virginia” box for residency but I feel more like a metro-Dc resident because that’s the current culture in which I live.

  49. Wolve

    Have we not enough rips in the fabric of our contemporary society already? Do we have to throw this one into the fray again?

  50. middleman

    I think some are missing the point. I, for one, am absolutely not ashamed of my southern and Virginian heritage. My direct ancestors came to this country in 1742 and landed in Port Royal, Va., which is just below Fredericksburg. From there they fanned out across the south, with a town east of Richmond being named for our family and a distant relative having been governor of South Carolina for a short time. My ancestors came here from France and England to escape religious persecution, being the reviled Huguenots. They fought in the Revolutionary War and in the Civil War for the Confederacy. Some branches of my family owned slaves, although my direct line was never financially well off enough to have any as far as I know.

    I still have lots of relatives in the south whom I love and respect. I appreciate the beauty of the south and the slower pace of life outside the big cities and the courtesy you find there. One of the reasons I respect and am not ashamed of my heritage is that I understand that you can’t judge people living 200 years ago by today’s standards. Another reason is that the south HAS changed from that time, albeit having at least partially been dragged kicking and screaming into that change. There’s a direct line from slavery to reconstruction to Jim Crow to segregation to unequal schools to unfair farm lending practices to over incarceration and on and on. It’s still a work in progress.

    None of the above means we should single out for honor those who were responsible for the worst aspects of southern heritage. I don’t care if Robert E. Lee was my great-great-great grandfather- I still wouldn’t want him honored alongside MLK. It’s a slap in the face of African-Americans and keeps us from moving beyond those dark times in our country.

    1. He isn’t being honored along side MLK. In Charlottesville, he is being honored the Friday before. I would actually agree that combining the holidays is just not cool on any level. I think it was for a while. Not cool.

      Perhaps this is generational. I am guessing that I am probably a generation ahead of you. I actually knew, in my life time, some of the old people (albeit, not many) people who lived during the Civil War. One was my great great aunt Carrie Burnley for whom the Burnley-Moran School in Charlottesville was named. Aunt Carrie was a very old lady when I was a kid but my point is, those old people lived through the post war period when places in the south had nothing left, including food. I don’t think my relative starved but I know a whole lot of other people were malnourished. They had their heroes and two of those heroes were military heroes, Jackson and Lee. That’s ok. All people have their heroes, especially people who have had the crap stomped out of them.

      Somehow out of all of it, I got here. When I look back, I don’t see fluttery gowns and men lounging on the veranda. I don’t come from those kinds of people. My people were farmers. Fairly prosperous farmers but farmers none the less and very much middle class. No twiddle de dee. All these people were, and the people like them were, were folks just trying to get along in the world that was created for them. They weren’t movers or shakers. Individuals, especially at that level had very little input into the great machinery that creates a war, especially a war of that magnitude.

      I am not ashamed of my southern roots either, nor am I ashamed of my people who came before me. Again, just people just trying to get along in a world that was pretty much made for them by others. I am also going to work mighty hard to see that their culture isn’t stomped out of the minds of those that are now sitting at their places at the table.

      We don’t have to honor Stonewall or Lee. I am pretty much past honoring much of anyone including everyone hero, Ronald. (can we please stop naming things for that man!!!) My George though, I sure don’t want statues torn down or schools renamed or special days stamped out. At some point, people will stop caring. They wont even notice if those “holidays” are no longer noticed. I don’t notice now.

      I don’t think anyone has misunderstood you, middleman. I just think some of us don’t agree with you. Honoring Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson doesn’t slap any African American in the face. I just don’t think the days should be combined. That’s just sort of obvious why not.

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