Almost. Just another week or two of warm weather and we will have daffodils, those harbingers of spring.
Everyone is sick of winter. I like winter and I am tired of being cold. Many western states have had the warmest weather on record. Not us.
How are you going to usher in spring?
Do not ask the DailyCaller to correct an erroneous published story – http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/03/tucker-carlson-brother-sent-profanitylaced-email-in-204536.html
Tucker Carlson and Brother Buckley – Class, Real Class. Unfortunately there are those like Fox who will continue to pay them a salary.
I JUST JOINED THE GREEN PARTY OF VIRGINIA !!!
How much did it cost ya?
The Green Party stands for participatory democracy, the fair treatment of all, ecological wisdom, non-violence, a decentralization of wealth, an economic system that creates jobs and maintains a decent standard of living, human values such as equity between sexes, interpersonal responsibility and honesty, respect for cultural, ethnic, racial, religious and spiritual diversity, the fostering of peace, economic justice and the health of the planet, and to focus on the future and sustainability.
I’m all in.
Those sound like values I approve of until they start shoving them down my throat.
So far it hasn’t cost a thing.
Oh it probably will. Where did you encounter the Green Party?
@BSinVA
“a decentralization of wealth”
“economic justice”
What does this mean and how does it work, please?
I hope it means that in America we don’t have a 1% making exponentially making more money than the bottom 99%.
@Cargosquid
“Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.”
Community-based economics and economic justice.. “We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a “living wage” which reflects the real value of a person’s work.
Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers’ rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and the enhancement of our quality of life. We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.”
How about a thread on this insane Indiana law? And the never-ending attempts by “fundamentalist” Christians to remold the world into their narrow-minded image, and to pretend we don’t need or want a divide between church and state?
On the topic of religion, I saw the first 40 minutes of the HBO documentary about Scientology …. very good stuff. Interesting, horrifying, thought-provoking.
Its a totally unacceptable law. People can think how they want. They may not act how they want. Its legalized prejudiced and descrimination.
Indiana +1
@Moon-howler
You do realize that Virginia has a similar law….right?
What is the statute? Does it have a cutesy name?
If Virginia has a law like that then we will repeal it. Legal discrimination is really not in vogue.
Haters are going to hate! As long as those businesses in Indiana do not benefit in any way from State or Federal programs (income tax deductions, State or Federal business loans, flood insurance, etc.), let them hate. If they are proud of what they are doing by discriminating against whatever groups, lets have their names be published on a web site so I can choose whether or not I want to discriminate against them for their positions. I already do with Chick-fil-a.
If they do benefit from State and/or Federal programs, then I hope the Feds initiate a discrimination suit immediately. I doubt that the Indiana law will prevail for long.
You are missing great chicken noodle soup and market salad. I gave up Dominos for years.
Indiana +2
I looked at the Indiana statute today and found it virtually impenetrable as to what it would actually mean in practice. There are at least two possibilities: 1) that it doesn’t really permit anything that isn’t already permissible under the First Amendment (in which case this is just window dressing and political gimcrackery), and 2) that, lurking in its murky language is enough latitude that a business owner who claims or who could at least make a colorable argument that his religion dictates it, could refuse to do business with someone who is gay, left-handed, isn’t wearing a full burka, has a stutter or any other of a number of conditions, possibly including race or religion (although I think the drafters dealt with the last two by referencing “compelling governmental interests).
For those of us who remember the 1960s and the religious arguments against integration, the alarms sending at least moderate signals here. Perhaps we can have some intelligent discussion here and elsewhere about what this statute really permits that would not have been permitted absent the statute, and where its lines are drawn.
In any event, I’m a bit tired of the talking heads on the tube on this issue. there has been a lot of rhetoric from both sides, but not a very clear explanation of exactly how this statute is intended to work in practice. I also completely miss what the “religious freedom” issue is underlying this. I could see religious scruples being trampled on if the state, local or federal governments were purporting to force people into same sex marriages or to have homosexual relations. However, as I understand it, this statute is supposed to give some comfort (not at all clear how much) to people who are engaging in commerce but who want to withhold commerce from people whose activities they have religious-based scruples about. I would think religious freedom is well protected if we all agree that the government cannot force you to engage in acts that your religion directs you not to engage in. Commerce doesn’t seem to be one of those acts.
I’m sure I can count on some of our regulars here to clear this all up for me. Might even qualify as a good separate post and comment thread, Moon.
Does someone have a copy of the statute? I will gladly give it its own thread.
Indiana +3
Why are you counting, Wolve?
@Moon-howler
You do realize that Clinton signed and passed and Obama voted for the federal version of the Indiana law, right?
Moon,
Here’s some more info:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2015/03/instead-of-picking-on-indiana-why-dont.html
http://volokh.com/2010/07/09/religious-exemption-law-map-of-the-united-states/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/30/what-will-the-indiana-religious-freedom-law-really-do/
More info.
Secretary of State John Kerry told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee today that the nuclear-weapons agreement the Obama administration is trying to negotiate with Iran–where the Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is supreme leader and commander in chief–will be an agreement “between leaders of a country” and will not be a “legally binding plan.”
Kerry also expressed his belief that the U.S. Congress will have no authority to modify such a deal.
__________________
If this is not a legally binding plan…then what’s the point? And if its an executive agreement he may be right about Congress not being able to modify it. But then…. the only branch of the government that will be bound by any agreement will be the Executive Branch. And the next Executive can erase the agreement with a stroke of a pen.
Why bother? The federal law was passed in the 1990’s. Sponsored, inter alia, by Charlie Schumer of New York. Signed by Bill Clinton. The law did not apply to the states, so the states had to pass their own versions. I believe 19 states preceded Indiana on this. It applies to all sorts of religious freedom issues which might arise. All these “woe is us” cries over the Indiana statute must be coming from people who just can’t keep up with the legislative history of their own country. And, of course, the contemporary LGBTers seem to think that everything revolves around them these days.
On to the next topic.
5 AM 31 March 2015. Inova Fairfax Hospital on lockdown. Gallows Road closed because of police activity. Escaped prisoner. Police are searching for him. Unconfirmed report of gunfire.
Drivers advised to stay away from the Inova Fairfax Hospital area.
My understanding, Wolve, is that the federal law applies to government action, whereas the Indiana statute goes beyond that coverage to extend to civil disputes between non-governmental entities. Do you have better information on that? Moreover, it appears that the Indiana bill would also apply to commercial enterprises, not just individuals. Again, it seems a bit difficult to clear away the smoke on this and get right to the meat of it, but if you know better, I’d be grateful for clarification.
RE Fairfax situation, I was awakened to a lot of chopper music this morning. I live not far from FFX Hospital. Still going on. Doors locked, perimeter lights on, Mr. Sig readily available. I haven’t wanted to walk the dogs until this gets resolved (although I have one dog that might resolve things in a hurry if given the chance).
People can keep saying that the Indiana law is the same as the Federal law and other States laws all they want, it will still not be true.
The Indiana law is unique in that is can be used in individual vs individual (if you can call Person, LLC’s, for profit Corporations, company, firm, church, religious society, etc an individual) – which is very different from the other laws in other States and the Federal Statute. This means that I can use the law to not provide services to an individual bases on hair color, eye color or waist size. It is a step backwards and I am glad to see major corporations tell Indiana that they have just closed the state for business.
Apple, Salesforce, Angies List, Gen Con, and others have announced halting expansion plans in the state or removal of business if the law is not repealed.
I think businesses should have to post their prejudices in the window/website: “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Gays, No Lesbians” Otherwise it is false advertising because the assumption is that a business is there to serve all the public. I’m sure many people would then be able to exercise their (other) first amendment right to picket or boycott such establishments.
It is an abuse of an employee’s religious rights for a corporate owner to tell them they can’t serve certain customers with a particular perceived sexual orientation. What if that kind of discriminatory behavior is against the employee’s religion and employee defies the company policy and serves gays anyway? Whose religion (employee or corporate owner) wins out in a RFPA shoot-out when the company fires the employee and the employee sues?
Individual religious freedom wins out over corporate religion in other cases such as employment law that prevents employment discrimination based on religion and requires reasonable accommodation of employee exercise of religion in the workplace.
@Cargosquid
I don’t think the legislation was identical. Furthermore, He also signed DOMA. It was a compromise. Let’s not try to obfuscate the situation. I have listened to enough of that out of Pence.
He also signed a federal bill 22 years ago. Much has changed since then.
Sigh. Let me know when homosexuals are refused service in any Indiana restaurant. Or Indiana commercial establishment of any kind. Except, as I understand it, when they ask a fundamentalist Christian or a Muslim owner to be an active participant in a same-sex marriage. Then it can go to court under the Indiana law, and the Christian or Muslim can use his sincere religious beliefs as a defense of his refusal. The defendents get standing in court to defend themselves. The defense applies to any kind of action, not just same-sex marriages. And you have to have a darn good case on how compliance would affect you substantially.
You all got a problem with that, or is this country now inclined to crush all the religio-moral beliefs of fundamentalists under the national heel without so much as a care for the court defense of religious freedom?
“There you go, you effing religious whackos, we are going to force the government of this place to take you by the back of the neck and make you participate in things which your religion tells you are sins. And you get no chance to argue. To hell with your gods, whatever you call them!”
Some of the uglies in this thing are the CEO’s of those Indiana companies who couldn’t give a sh**t about religious freedom. One of those dumb suckers actually scolded the governor and legislature for not listening to the CEO’s before enacting the law. Imagine that. “Listen to us, not to your voters!”…….Arrogant bastards.
What fundamentalist Muslim or Christian has been asked to participate in same sex marriage? I don’t think being asked to put two brides on a cake is participating in homosexual marriage. Now, if a wedding planner is forced to be a flower girl, then we have a problem.
Here is my problem, Wolve. Fundamentalists have been trying to shove religion down my throat since I was a kid. I don’t mind if fundamentalists have their beliefs but I do care if they try to establish their faith as part of government policy. It doesn’t seem to be a two way street with many.
I am very opposed to school prayer, prayer before public meetings, and posting 10 commandments at public facilities. If I need to pray, and I sometimes do, I can do it before the meeting. I don’t need to show off in front of the public doing it. Religion is a very private and personal matter to me and I don’t like it at the end of a sword.
Religious folks can be horrible bullies. Some of the bullying is public and some of it is very subtle.
Meanwhile, it looks like we may be giving away the nuclear store in Lausanne — to people who hang homosexuals just for being homosexual.
Can i form a religion that says I don’t want to serve black people? Or Christians? Or women? Or maybe white men?
The idea of “religious belief” should never be an excuse not to follow societal laws. I believe this guy Jesus felt that way too, something about rending unto Ceasar.
The real issue with the gay weddings is homophobia, not defense of religion.
Standing ovation, Rick.
Speaking of gay weddings, I don’t think anyone should be forced to go to one and I certainly don’t think any minister should be forced to marry a couple who do not meet the laws and standards of any church. Straight, same-sex or whatever.
And don’t think that it’s not possible to start a religion, with some new set of prejudices in it. That HBO documentary on Scientology is fascinating. The whole thing is ridiculous, some set of well-meaning people flock to it, and become trapped and enmeshed in it.
Keep that crap away from government. Keep church and state seperate. The alternative is abject insanity.
Bullshit. The religious doctrines of many Americans say that same-sex marriage is not acceptable in the eyes of their deity. Who do you think you are to tell them that their beliefs are of no consequence and that they must be active participants in what they consider to be sins just because the “sinners” say they must do so? And that they will be punished by government if they refuse?
The real insanity is that, in a country where so many came in search of religious freedom, a part of our society so hates religion that they try every way they can to crap on the long-standing faith of the descendants of those immigrants.
And I don’t believe that “this guy Jesus” meant that believers should feel free to engage voluntarily in sin just because Caesar said so. That’s atheist nonsense.
Wolve, calm down. Where is someone being asked to actively participate in gay marriage?
BTW, I have seen presumably gay men refused service in a restaurant. Virginia, not Indiana.
I also know of no bible verse that says it is a sin to have a gay marriage. I used to try to marry my dogs to each other.
I’m sorry….where did a business lose the right to refuse service to anyone? Have you not seen those signs? Can a business owner be compelled to do business with someone? Can the Gay black photographer be forced to take pictures at the KKK rally? Can the Muslim stores be forced to sell pork for a BBQ wedding? Will deli’s be forced to not be kosher?
If a businessman cannot use government to force someone to be a customer, why can the customer be allowed to use government to force compliance on a private individual?
Oh. Wait a industry can use government to force you to be a customer…..you MUST buy insurance, even if you cannot afford it, merely because you are alive.
@Cargosquid
Oh. Wait a industry can use government to force you to be a customer…..you MUST buy insurance, even if you cannot afford it, merely because you are alive.
but you are ok with the government telling an industry that the MUSt give away services to people even if they are unable to pay for those very expensive services?
Can the Gay black photographer be forced to take pictures at the KKK rally? Can the Muslim stores be forced to sell pork for a BBQ wedding? Will deli’s be forced to not be kosher?
what part of the law addresses this?