When a gunman opened fire on Charleston’s Emanuel A.M.E. Church Wednesday, spraying bullets into a group of worshippers gathered for a mid-week prayer meeting, it was as though history repeated itself.
This historic congregation, the oldest of its kind in the South, had already seen more than its fair share of tumult and hate. It was founded by worshippers fleeing racism and burned to the ground for its connection with a thwarted slave revolt. For years its meetings were conducted in secret to evade laws that banned all-black services. It was jolted by an earthquake in 1886. Civil rights luminaries spoke from its pulpit and led marches from its steps. For nearly two hundred years it had been the site of struggle, resistance and change.
On Wednesday, the church was a crime scene — the street outside aglow with the flashing red lights of police cars and echoing with the screech of sirens. Nine people had been killed there, reportedly including the church’s pastor, Rev. Clementa Pinckney, though police had not confirmed his death.
Rev. Pinckney has been confirmed as dead. What would possess a person to commit such a horrible act? he people were worshipping. What makes this a hate crime? Was it because it was in a church? Was it racially motivated? Was there past history with one of the victims?
This case seems very dreadful and very scary.
For me, the most sickening part are the reports that the killer sat through an hour of the prayer meeting before starting his killing spree. How sick do you have to be to spend an hour PRAYING with people and then decide to kill them?
Not to understate other killings, but it’s one thing to walk up to a stranger and kill them in cold blood. But it’s a whole different level of psychopathy to spend time in CHURCH with your victims and still kill them.
I don’t support the death penalty anymore, but that the hell do you do with somebody like that? Even the Boston Marathon bombers weren’t this cold blooded.
I agree with you, Furby. That is especially sick and psychotic, in my opinion.
The killing of Dr. Tiller was craven but not like this. At least that dude didn’t pray with him first, he just came to his church and killed him. Praying with people and then killing them is just depraved on a level I don’t want to think about.
This was obviously racially motivated. The president is correct. These things don’t happen with such frequency in civilized countries. It’s within our power to prevent these horrific occurrences.
I am afraid it might have been racially motivated, according to witnesses (survivors)
One photo perfectly captures America’s relationship with guns
Jonathan Neufeld, a philosophy professor at the College of Charleston in Charleston, S.C., shared this photo on Twitter today. It shows this morning’s edition of the Charleston Post & Courier with its front page story on the shocking murder of 9 black congregants at a church last night.
The front page also carries an ad for “Ladies’ Night” at the ATP Gun Shop & Range in Summerville, S.C. “$30 gets you everything!” the ad promises, including eye and ear protection, a pistol or revolver, and 50 rounds of ammo for use on the shooting range. You get a souvenir T-shirt, and their website notes that the instructors are women.
“Have you ever wanted to learn to shoot for fun, sport, or self-defense, but felt intimidated by guns or the guys? Then you need to sign up for one of our Ladies’ Night Shoots,” the web site says.
In a statement to media reporter Jim Romenesko, the Charleston Post & Courier said “the front-page sticky note that was attached to some home delivery newspapers on the same day as this tragedy is a deeply regrettable coincidence. We apologize to those who were offended.” Romenesko notes this isn’t the first time that this type of thing has happened.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/18/one-photo-perfectly-captures-the-insanity-of-americas-relationship-with-guns/?tid=sm_fb
@Starryflights
Yeah..go ahead and blame the gun. Hammers and saws build houses not carpenters. Cars and alcohol kill people, not drunk drivers.
I think he killed because of his horrible name. Dylann Storm Roof? Is that a misprint?
He had just gotten a .45 for his birthday. Maybe he was just one of those people who shouldn’t have had a gun.
It seems pretty obvious that this was racially motivated. 21 year olds don’t just randomly start wearing patches with the flags of Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia. This guy (I’m trying to stop calling him a ‘kid’) wasn’t even alive when South Africa went democratic. And why target a black church instead of a mall or school?
Really have to question the judgement of the parents as well. No matter what you might think about gun control in general, if you as a parent think the perfect birthday gift for your 21 year old child with a criminal history is a gun, you are doing it wrong.
I hope this all doesn’t degenerate into another gun debate. If things didn’t change after Sandy Hook, they won’t change now. It still just chills me that he could stay with his victims for an hour like that and then kill them. That’s a really messed up mind.
On his name, I read one Daily Kos that ‘Storm’ is apparently popular among white supremacists. Short for stormfront which apparently is big in their world. Don’t know what. I only learned what 88 meant recently.
I still don’t know what 88 means.
Why do people use guns for mass murder? Notoriety and mass murder can be done lots of other ways and with higher death totals. I’m guessing guns are the only murder weapon where people can go and practice carnage before hand.
He’s in custody. Saw his picture. Creepy looking…especially the eye and the little kids haircut. Had a criminal history, as well as being a drug user. Couldn’t have passed a background check I reckon. I predict we will learn that he had some major issues, and these were known by many.
It sounds like stupid parents was one of his biggest issues.
Now being reported that in addition to having a felony narcotics possession, he was also currently taking psych meds. Yep, as this onion gets peeled, we are going to find that this was a deeply disturbed individual. But the anti-2nd amendment crowd will use this tragedy to yet again call for “new reasonable gun-safety controls”, which as has been proven time and time again, have no impact on crime, including complete bans on firearms ownership.
“They” should ban guns from places of worship in South Carolina….um wait…guns ARE banned from Churches in South Carolina.
For what that’s worth….
@Steve Thomas This is a horrible tragedy, made worse by the “hands up, don’t shoot!” crowd that is rushing in to politicize it, and the bald opportunism behind the calls to limit gun rights that largely impact law-abiding gun owners.
As far as the parents who gave this criminal a gun as a gift, I’m scratching my head over that one. Although we own guns and allow our grown kids to use them under our tight supervision at the range, we would never consider gifting one to them, even though my kids are emotionally healthy. This criminal clearly had problems. What were they thinking?
Agreed. I will hae to admit though, to giving one of my kids my gun. I had inherited it from my mother and father. He also wasn’t 21 with a criminal history. He also had a concealed carry permit and was in his 30’s. I wouldn’t have given it to him at 21.
@Emma Did you hear any calls for gun control when two Muslims tried to enter an event at a school in McKinney Texas, armed with AK-47s and were fortunately stopped by good guys with guns? Nope. All I heard from the side usually advocating to limit gun ownership was “It’s Pam Gellers fault for being insensitive, we had better not stereotype Muslims as terrorists.”
As far as this shooter goes, fry him. If his dad knew of his son’s felony, lock his sorry butt up too.
I’m completely on board with prosecuting the father in this case.
I find it disturbing that many people are treating this only as racial hate. It seems to me that the perp was mentally ill.
I think mental illness has to be part of this discussion. I haven’t heard it yet.
It’s early in the unfolding of the story, but the suspect does seem to have mental problems. One of the issues that these types of stories raises is this issue of hate crimes. I’ve never understood this. Murder is murder. Assault is assault. Vandalism is vandalism. Punish these crimes directly. I don’t get why we try to assess the inner motive for an extra dollop of punishment based on motivation.
As for guns, they’re entirely too easy to get and to exchange. I can be respectful of people like Steve, who are responsible owners, but why should it be simple to give a gun to someone who has these kinds of attitudes or problems? Whether the dad knew of the priors or not, he had to know that the kid was troubled. The story of the killer of the kids in North Carolina also comes to mind. Why should a guy with those kinds of anger issues be able to legally have a gun?
I think I am agreeing with everything you say.
I have a problem with unstable people being allowed to buy guns and other forms of weapons.
I do think some crimes are worse because of who the victims are but I also think it is had to evaluate “hate.”
Is it worse to spray paint someone’s home because they are aholes or because they are say black or Jewish? What if they are both Ahole and protected group? Which counts for worse? Perhaps I haven’t explained well…
From what I’ve read that kid wasn’t mentally disturbed. His parents simply raised him to be a POS. His daddy gave him a gun to top it off. This is the product of bad parents.
As for the gun issue, this won’t change anything. That much is obvious. What’s a mass shooting every few months? That’s just the cost of our freedom to have guns, I guess.
If you sit down and pray with people for an hour and then shoot them multiple times, you are mentally disturbed. Not disagreeing with the POS part. I think you can be both mentally disturbed and a POS.
His uncle said he hoped he got what he deserved.
He’s known to have been taking psych meds, Starry. That generally indicates some type of mental disturbance, which in the real world doesn’t automatically classify someone as a “POS”
Although it doesn’t disqualify them either….
I don’t think the killer’s mental issues are in doubt. Nor is his racial hatred. His mental illness was the cause of the attack. His racial hatred was how he targeted the victims because they were black.
The Virginia Tech killer was mentally ill but didn’t target people by race.
How do we fix people like this? I don’t know what the solution is for something like this. It’s hard to stop a bad parent from giving their child a gun illegally. (I assume people with outstanding felony charges can’t purchase guns.) The gun rights crowd is saying the victims should have been armed. (Not sure how many people are going to carry a gun to their Bible study.) On the other hand, if the killer hadn’t gotten a gun, he might have planted a bomb instead.
As it was explained to me 88 is code for HH (H is the eighth letter in the alphabet) HH is short for Heil Hitler. Don’t know if it’s true or just an Internet thing. Supposedly they’ll get tattoos with 88 and things like that. There’s apparently something about Hitler’s birthday too.
There are no easy answers.
Is it worse to kill randomly or because of race or religion? Where does the grouping stop? Tech group would be college students and faculty. Aurora–people watching a certain movie. I am not sure one reason is worse than the other.
I do think killing in a church whether single or multiple murders is particularly sick and vile. Its like a personal visit from Satan and I am not even one to believe in an anthropromorphic devil.
Moon,
It’s still early. We must first demonized an inanimate, amoral object. Next, have the discussion on race, class and gender, then move on to see if sexual orientation was a motive. Plus, we haven’t yet delved into his political views, and which news programs he watched, and to which organizations he belonged. Only then will his mental health be examined, and we will find what we always find: the shooter was mentally ill, showed many signs of a potential for violence, and friends and family knew this BUT “couldn’t believe he was capable of something like this”.
Can’t have this discussion yet. According to the “Media Crisis and Tragedy Exploitation and Sensationalism Manual” , the current step is “blame gun manufacturers and the NRA”. Please stick to the approved workflow.
I guess those two Muslim shooters in McKinney were just mentally ill too. You can’t call white shooters thugs or terrorists.
Steve:
It’s too easy for people to get guns without understanding much about whether any particular person is someone who might be a danger to others. As you frequently say, the gun isn’t itself dangerous, but the person behind it is (the same is probably true of nuclear weapons, by the way). Nonetheless, this kid, the guy in Connecticut, the VT gunman, and the man in North Carolina who murdered those absolutely stellar young American Muslims should never have been able to get their hands on deadly weapons. There has to be a better way of screening people. We’re allowing a lot of unhinged, angry people to carry around small concealable items capable of meting out mass death in seconds. That doesn’t make a bit of sense. Why would we do that?
@Starryflights
Starry,
White racists, Islamic Extremists, “I hate the gub’ment”, “I want to get even for 400 years of slavery”, “Remember Waco” “Justice for Michael Brown” “I was ignored/bullied in school”…whatever outward manifestation or internal justification, there is always a component of mental illness in mass murder, whether executed as a “spree” or single incident, or over time in serial fashion.
@Starryflights
I don’t think anybody is sugar coating Roof. If calling him a ‘terrorist’ makes you happy, then, yes, I think Roof was a “terrorist” (And I don’t think anybody is really disputing it) So far it looks like he was the “lone wolf” variety, but its too early to say for certain. A person can be mentally ill and be a terrorist.
At least to me a ‘thug’ needs to look physically large and intimidating. A ‘thug’ looks like somebody who could kick my ass in a fight with ease. Roof was a psychopath, a murderer, and a terrorist, but he was a scrawny psychopath and just doesn’t look like a ‘thug’.
FYI, I think you have two different news stories mixed up. There were no shootings by Muslims in McKinney, TX. (The pool party was in McKinney, TX) I assume you meant the two Muslim shooters in Garland, TX. They may be mentally ill too. But I never saw enough information about them before they were killed. I think you could make a pretty good argument that most terrorists are mentally ill in some way though.
I suggest that a panel or committee of psychiatrists and psychologists be formed to determine the professional malfeasance and criminal liability of the psychiatric and counseling community in treating these people, their actions and failure to report to law enforcement authorities. Certainly, in this case, their failure, having proscribed some serious drugs to “help” this young man, they knew or should have known that he held politically and racially inappropriate views and was a danger to our society. I am with Steve on this. We need to stop demonizing inanimate objects (guns, pipe bombs and pressure cookers) and, if serious about the issue, start getting to the responsible people involved. The father – not so much.
@Scout
“That doesn’t make a bit of sense. Why would we do that?”
Scout, that is the challenge of living in a free and open society. Yes, we do need to try to prevent those who are mentally ill from obtaining things that may be used to harm others. But why stop at guns? Ban them from driving cars, as cars have been deliberately used to run down innocent people. Ban them from handling knives or blunt instruments, as these are used more often than guns to kill people, because they are much easier to obtain. Ban them from gas stations and garden-supply stores and from the appliance isle at WalMart, as someone with evil intent can obtain the items required to inflict mass casualties. Ban them from owning an X-box, as the realistic and exceedingly violent games played allow for practice and indulging the psychosis.
I’ve said this before, and I will say it again. It’s not the object. Objects are amoral. With a brick, I can bash someone’s skull in, shatter a plate-glass window, or any number of antisocial acts…or, with that same brick, I can build a hospital, a community center, a church or a school. With TNT, one can cause numerous deaths, or, use it to move a mountain and build a railroad. The object is nothing more than a tool to achieve an end. It’s a hard heart and a sick mind that decides what the “end” is.
And I’ve said this before as well: We are the most medicated society in human history. “Johnny won’t sit still in class. He’s hyperactive. Here Johnny…take this pill”. “Johnny doesn’t socialize with others. He prefers to spend his time playing his games and surfing the web. Here Johnny, Mass Destruction 4, the latest X-box game, and we’ve upgraded our internet too. Did you remember to take your Xannax?” “Johnny’s been saying some nutty things lately, drawing disturbing things, and did you read that essay he turned in? I’m his teacher, but I want to respect his privacy. The insane have rights you know, and I don’t want to put labels on Johnny. Plus, he is taking his pills. Pills are good.” “Johnny? Yeah, Johnny’s my bro. We go back to middle-school. Yo…Johnny’s been saying some crazy things. What you been up to, Johnny? Still taking them pills? Got any to spare?”. “Johnny, we think you might have some mental issues, but there isn’t anyplace we can put you. It costs too much, and we decided institutionalizing the mentally ill is inhumane. Are you taking your pills Johnny?” “Johnny, as a Judge, I have the power to adjudicate you as mentally deficient, and send you to an institution for a period of time. But I want to be merciful, and instead you will be treated as an out-patient. Remember to take your pills. Those pills are good for you”.
Why is it that whenever something like this happens, the first reaction is to blame to tool? Why is it that when a cop shoots an “unarmed” man, the first question asked is “was the cop white, and the “victim” black? Why is it when a college girl tells a fantastic story about being gang raped, the first reaction is “white college boy are out-of-control”? Why is it that when a muslim commits or attempts to commit an act violence, we refuse to consider that he or she might be a religious radical? Why is it that someone born with XX or XY Chromosomes can decide they want to “be” something else, and those who refuse to recognize this are “crazy”. Why is it our society just spent a week debating the rights of a woman to perpetuate a fraud and harm others, simply because she “feels” like she belongs to a certain group. Because our society has devolved to “emotive reasoning”, rather than logic and rational thought. Here America, take your pills. Pills are good. Smoke some weed too. Weed is good. Embrace the “crazy”. Crazy is normal.
I don’t think anyone said that white college boys are out of control. I was more than willing to include those of all races. Check out the stats on hazing.
I think you have to incorporate discussion of the tool used to kill and how you keep the wrong people from acquiring said tools. Yes, tools are immoral. On the other hand, why don’t we give 5 year olds matches to entertain themselves? Matches are amoral. They, however, can cause irreparable harm to property people. Therefore, we guard against kids getting hold of them.
WTF?
@Furby McPhee
” Roof was a psychopath, a murderer, and a terrorist, but he was a scrawny psychopath and just doesn’t look like a ‘thug’.”
Thugs live a criminal anti-social life. They use violence for gain. These spree killers are different. Violence is their end-game. One is a sociopath. The other a psychopath.
Roof was scrawny. Lanza was scrawny. So were the columbine, VT, Aurora shooters. They all had really bad haircuts too, and Charles Manson eyes.
@Furby McPhee
Furby,
Thanks for correcting my geographical error. Garland TX was Islamic terrorists. McKinney was a riot at a community pool. Getting tough to keep my media storms straight.
@Steve Thomas
Because of liberals with white guilt silly…
When was the last time you called Bill Ayers a terrorist? I’ve been calling him one for years. There are plenty of white domestic terrorists teaching kids in some of our most prestigious colleges today but for some reason the aren’t called ‘terrorists’, why is that?
If this wasn’t premeditated murder, what was it?
He entered the church, sat down with the prayer group for an hour.
Then he pulled out his gun and killed all but ONE, whom he told to
report what had happened.
These murders were PLANNED. The shooter was sane enough to
plan the whole thing. Premeditated murder!
@punchak
Punchak,
Being mentally deranged and acting with premeditation are not mutually exclusive conditions. The Tate/Labianca murders, carried out by the Manson family were planned, by some very unbalanced individuals.
Here’s a good article detailing the relationship between spree-killers, mental illness, and psychotropic medications: http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/big-list-of-drug-induced-killers/#!
@Steve Thomas
I’m covering my ears and eyes. The young man PLANNED it!
@Steve Thomas
Psycho babble doesn’t sit well with me.
Could we also talk about the father, who gave his
troubled son a gun as a birthday present. Maybe HE is the
one who’s insane.
@punchak
If so, HE would also be excused. Right?
@punchak
Yes, he did plan it. No one is arguing otherwise. Doesn’t mean he’s not mentally ill, nor should this be any kind of a defense. If his father knew of his issues, he’s negligent. If he knew that his son was prohibited from purchasing a firearm, due to his criminal record, I’d say that makes him an accessory to murder.
@Steve Thomas
And the Charles Manson eyes are he real dead giveaway. I use to see kids with Charles Manson eyes and have a chill run up my spine.
@Steve Thomas
Totally agree there. Killing multiple people in cold blood just isn’t psychologically normal.
It’s challenging enough for some people to do in battle, even people who are trained.
The normal, rational, western mind is pretty trained to think that mass killing is immoral and repugnant.
@blue
The medical and clinical community has a great many limitations placed on it. A psychologist cant go home with someone to make them take their meds. Many people see people paid for my the county or state. These professionals have more patients than clients and are often underpaid.
Would you be the first person to howl about your taxes being raised to hire more clinicians?
@Steve Thomas
I had never considered the difference in a sociopath and a psychopath. Not sure I know the difference
@Steve Thomas
I was just thinking the same thing. I don’t know if I am becoming desensitized or senile.
I just can’t keep it all straight.
One note of irony. I guess the cops in Charleston and Shelby, NC are the good guys.
Is anyone else tired of hearing about the battle flag being the cause of this rampage?
Odd. I know someone I consider a very good friend who has the battle flag displayed in her basement. She is a fairly liberal person. I have a genuine vintage rising sun flag in a curio table. I don’t feel the urge to bomb Pearl Harbor because of that flag.
I don’t think that flags necessarily mean much of anything. Let’s face it, South Carolina, like Virginia, did leave the USA for 4 years. I think it has nothing to do with this young man. He would have done what he did regardless of which state he lived in.
I remodeled back in the fall and Robert E. Lee left my living room. I might just have to dig him back up and hang him up. Those familiar with him would know that he was an honorable, well-respected man for his day and time. I love the picture because it was given to me by my very liberal friend Tom. Not sure where he got it but it curled his toes to own it. Tom was a Jersey boy. I also admire Chief Joseph but I don’t think I want to hang him on the wall.
My dogs are also named after civil war generals. Why? Its a theme because I live a half mile from Bull Run. If I had stayed in Fredericksburg I might have dogs with different names. Its difficult to live anywhere in Virginia that doesn’t have a war running through it.
Was this rampage an act of domestic terrorism?
I am not sure.
@Moon-howler
One could make legitimately make that argument, imho
A sociopath is perfectly aware of reality, and is capable of rational thought. They lack empathy for others. Most criminals and many politicians are sociopaths. Ted Bundy was an extreme sociopath. Psychopaths have a warped view of reality, and are impulsive. Gary Berkowitz, the son of sam killer, was a psychopath.
I am sick of the flag being brought into this and I am sick of the anti-second amendment angle being brought into this. Its not the Confederate Flag and its not the racist flag flown in the 50s and 60s. It is the ANV’s battle flag and flying it honors the soldiers from those states who fought to defend their states. I could go on, but not many people know the history of the war or the flag, which is why it needs to remain.
With respoect to the gun issue I would note that it was reported today on a local LA TV channel that a woman has been charged with beating her boyfriend to death with canned food. 59-year-old Linda Jackson of Lake Los Angeles is charged with striking her 59-year-old boyfriend, David Ruiz, in the head with a can of peas, a can of carrots and a can of chicken broth on Tuesday at her home. Tell me the peas did it. Outlaw peas!
Far fetched argument there, Blue. re peas. I think you need to look at frequency. Perhaps a better argument might be to ask what gun law real or not enacted, would have prevented this senseless killing. Is there one? Could it ever be enforced?
As for the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, I don’t mind confederate flags of any sort displayed in an historical context. However, why does it need to fly over the court house of South Carolina? I don’t mind if any of the past flags of a state are incorporated into the design of that flag. Flying a separate flag over the statehouse just doesn’t need to be done, especially when that flag has been misused by so many people to send a clear message of racism.
On the other hand, that flag being there didn’t cause or contribute the killing rampage any more than a swastika did. I just think its time for various confederate flags and flags of our past (Gadsden included) to take their place in history. That way those who misuse those flags won’t really have the opportunity to hijack those flags for their own causes.
Who pays reparations to the families of the victims? When mass killing occurs in an airplane or car there is insurance to help pay for the funerals. I doubt there are deep pockets in this killer’s family and unlikely a homeowner’s policy, but perhaps the NRA might want to show how responsible gun owners are and pay millions to the victim families out of their dues. With rights comes responsibility and part of the exercise of the right to travel comes the responsibility to have insurance to compensate victims of dangerous travel methods. I wish guns owners weren’t so resistant to doing the same. We could have a gun victim fund funded by a sales tax on ammo and gun sales that anyone injured by a gunshot could petition for compensation?
@Ed Myers Yes, it is a known fact that victims’ families recover faster from their losses when they have lots of dollar bills with which to dry their eyes.
How ridiculous to blame the NRA and not the criminal who pulled a trigger.
Yes Ed and the family of the guy in LA should be compensated by the DelMonte Pea Company farmers — right?
@Starryflights What would you call the Navy Yard shooter?
I call BS. Name another profession or company that has no professional responsibility for their actions, for negligence or for their missed diagnosis. Government employees come to mind, but look what that has gotten us and the number of employees has exploded under this Administration.
@blue
Sure would be difficult to kill nine people with cans of veggies.
It took THREE cans to kill ONE, and how much time? 🙂